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  #37  
Old 10-12-2014, 01:02 AM
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Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
And what exactly do you think a bus does? Yup, it's an interface to send/receive signals. Please tell me you're not serious....I can absolutely guarantee you that the bus has a pin that will in fact send a signal to the air suspension to enter Aero mode. Sure, there are multiple logic gates associated with that signal, but in the end it's a simple pin-out signal that is sent. I'm not sure why you're trying to be such a negative Nancy about this when it's nothing but electrical signals we're talking about.
Did you read a few pages from basic electronics and suddenly decide you are going to throw random terms out there? Logic gates? A pin with a signal on this bus? You're not even remotely close to how this is set up. Look, I'm a systems engineer and have been working on both avionics and automotive systems for MANY years. The ASCM communicates and receives data from the other controllers in the vehicle via a 2-wire CAN (controller area network) bus. This bus has EXACTLY 2 wires. The MESSAGES sent over this bus are digital communications...a protocol. It isn't a SIGNAL level or logic gates and so forth. You are thinking discrete logic...which this is not.

00 11 FC 91 00 EA

That, above, in hexadecimal, would be an example of a message format requesting the current vehicle speed from the PCM, sent over that bus. That message is transmitted SERIALLY over the 2-wire CAN bus (think of this like computer networking -- Ethernet), received by the PCM, decoded (much like RS-232 but differentially and with a 500kbps data rate), then the firmware in the PCM responds to it and sends a response message back with that data.

You need to get this through your head...there is no "SIGNAL" for you to "cut off", halt, or modify. You'd have to hook a microcontroller between the ASCM and the other modules, intercept and decode all of these messages, pass the right ones through, changes others, etc. It isn't a simple splicing job.

Another thing you don't realize is that there is nothing "telling" the ASCM to go into Aero mode. It is making that decision, internally, on its own. It is constantly getting messages (like above) from the ABS controller, body controller, and PCM with the current vehicle speed, state, etc. It does not have direct connections to the wheel speed sensors and so forth. It is getting that data from the other modules via this network connection. Then, when the right parameters are met, it makes the decision to go into Aero mode. It is a contained microcontroller (processor) based device with firmware (software).

Quote:
Once again, I'm not talking about re-engineering the system, I'm simply talking about interrupting the signal to enter Aero mode. How about a little wager between us if you truly believe I can't prevent my Overland from going into Aero mode? Make it worth my while to prove it to you, which I will do with a video of my dashboard.
Well, you are actually talking about re-engineering the system--or at least engaging in a similar effort. You just haven't come to realize it yet.

I'm not going to play silly wagers with someone on the internet. However, I will be duly impressed if you manage to ACTUALLY pull it off without setting other fault codes in the system AND the system works properly in every other way. And no, that doesn't mean pulling the fuse for it--that will set fault codes and basically your air suspension won't work at all.

I will also be quite amused at all of this silliness if you suddenly disappear after causing much havoc with your Overland. In any case...I do think you should try if you can afford to repair it. Maybe you'll learn something. But understand I have little faith when someone doesn't even understand how the communications network on the vehicle operates and starts talking about logic gates on the bus signal pins and looking for discrete electrical pins for commanding Aero mode to operate.

Also understand that this CAN be done. It's just not going to be done with the simple splicing job you think it will take and it will be a rather involved and lengthy thing to do requiring an understanding of the networking protocols used by the vehicle (as well as reverse-engineering those protocols). It will involve making a programmable module of your own to intercept and modify the messages going across the network in specific ways in order to accomplish what you want without unduly affecting all the other operations of the suspension. You'll need a microcontroller, the ability to write firmware (software) for it, a CAN transceiver--two if you need to selectively drop certain messages and not let them through, and the appropriate programming.

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  #38  
Old 10-12-2014, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post

And what exactly do you think a bus does?
I used to catch a bus to work. I know exaclty what a bus does. It always runs late!
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  #39  
Old 10-12-2014, 07:24 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
(think of this like computer networking -- Ethernet),
This is a succinct distillation of how the various systems and subsystems in our vehicles communicate...it's not "signals", it's "conversations".
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  #40  
Old 10-13-2014, 10:46 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by bill_de View Post
I believe with ECO off Aero kicks in at a higher speed. Of course it always kicks in when in Sport mode.


---

Over the week-end I had a buddy drive the Jeep as we went out for dinner. He is looking to get into a 2014 (slightly used) Hemi Overland so he wanted to test drive my car.

He did the unthinkable: turned off the ECO mode. I noticed that the car did not go into AERO mode at speeds of 60 mph. On the other hand he also put it in SPORT and the car never reached 8th gear, cruising in 7th and in AERO mode.

I guess I did not really pay attention to these details. For me it is either SPORT or ECO.
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  #41  
Old 10-13-2014, 10:59 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Did you read a few pages from basic electronics and suddenly decide you are going to throw random terms out there? Logic gates? A pin with a signal on this bus? You're not even remotely close to how this is set up.
Actually, no. I have a background in electonics.....specifically automotive electronics. If you want to talk shop, that's fine. "A pin with a signal on this bus" isn't what I said. The bus does in fact send a signal (yes, a signal. All electrical impulses can be defined as a signal. That's pretty basic stuff there, bud) to a pin-out that will enable or disable Aero mode. How exactly do you think Aero mode is enabled/disabled? Hint: it's an electrical signal. You can play the semantic games all you want, but at the end of the day it's an electrical signal, just like everything else in the vehicle.

Quote:

Look, I'm a systems engineer and have been working on both avionics and automotive systems for MANY years.
Let me know where to send your cookie.

Quote:
The ASCM communicates and receives data from the other controllers in the vehicle via a 2-wire CAN (controller area network) bus. This bus has EXACTLY 2 wires. The MESSAGES sent over this bus are digital communications...a protocol. It isn't a SIGNAL level or logic gates and so forth. You are thinking discrete logic...which this is not.

00 11 FC 91 00 EA

That, above, in hexadecimal, would be an example of a message format requesting the current vehicle speed from the PCM, sent over that bus. That message is transmitted SERIALLY over the 2-wire CAN bus (think of this like computer networking -- Ethernet), received by the PCM, decoded (much like RS-232 but differentially and with a 500kbps data rate), then the firmware in the PCM responds to it and sends a response message back with that data.
Yup, and after all that "logic" occurs, a SIGNAL is sent to go into or out of Aero mode. Not sure why you can't get this through your head, but once again, I'm not talking about re-engineering the system. I'm simply talking about preventing (or blocking) the signal to enter Aero mode. Again, this isn't rocket science and it's certainly not nearly as complicated as you're tying to make it out to be.

Quote:

You need to get this through your head...there is no "SIGNAL" for you to "cut off", halt, or modify. You'd have to hook a microcontroller between the ASCM and the other modules, intercept and decode all of these messages, pass the right ones through, changes others, etc. It isn't a simple splicing job.
LOL....okay, lets take another approach, since you have such a hard time wrapping your head around this. After all is said and done, and the "magic" happens, how does the vehicle mechanically get into Aero mode? How does that happen? Does it take magic? Or is there an electrical signal that causes the suspension height to change via enabling or disabling Aero mode? Think about it....

Quote:

Another thing you don't realize is that there is nothing "telling" the ASCM to go into Aero mode. It is making that decision, internally, on its own. It is constantly getting messages (like above) from the ABS controller, body controller, and PCM with the current vehicle speed, state, etc. It does not have direct connections to the wheel speed sensors and so forth. It is getting that data from the other modules via this network connection. Then, when the right parameters are met, it makes the decision to go into Aero mode. It is a contained microcontroller (processor) based device with firmware (software).
OMG....you really don't understand, do you? Again, I'm not questioning HOW the decision is made to go into Aero mode or not. I'm talking about preventing it by interrupting the signal that enables Aero mode.

Quote:

I'm not going to play silly wagers with someone on the internet. However, I will be duly impressed if you manage to ACTUALLY pull it off without setting other fault codes in the system AND the system works properly in every other way. And no, that doesn't mean pulling the fuse for it--that will set fault codes and basically your air suspension won't work at all.
Of course you won't wager...because you know that you'll lose.

And you just admitted yourself that it would be easy to prevent the vehicle from entering Aero mode by simply pulling a fuse. Wow, Einstein, that was very progressive thinking on your part. If I can simply pull a fuse to disable Aero mode (as you admitted), then what in the world makes you think that I can't do the same thing by interrupting the signal in the first place? BTW, any fault codes set by pulling the fuse would be temporary and would go away when the fuse was put back in. But in the meantime, Aero mode would not be achieved. So what makes you think that it would not be possible (but admittedly crude) to put mount a switch in the cabin for that fused circuit? Newsflash--the car won't blow up, the suspension won't bottom out, and Aero mode will in fact not happen either. That's not exactly the way I'd do it, but it would work. No doubt about it.
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  #42  
Old 10-13-2014, 11:00 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Over the week-end I had a buddy drive the Jeep as we went out for dinner. He is looking to get into a 2014 (slightly used) Hemi Overland so he wanted to test drive my car.

He did the unthinkable: turned off the ECO mode. I noticed that the car did not go into AERO mode at speeds of 60 mph. On the other hand he also put it in SPORT and the car never reached 8th gear, cruising in 7th and in AERO mode.

I guess I did not really pay attention to these details. For me it is either SPORT or ECO.

I drive in non-ECO all the time. Like clockwork it goes into Aero at speeds above around 57. Sport mode is always in Aero of course.

I'll try mine today to see if there's any detectable difference between ECO and non-ECO mode in apples-to-apples situations.

If you think about it, it doesn't really make sense for having Aero operate differently in ECO vs non-ECO. The difference in air resistance and airflow dynamics between Aero and non-Aero doesn't become any kind of factor until speeds of 50+ mph or more with this kind of body shape so nobody would really be adding any "ECO" to ECO-mode by having it engage earlier. And it's a small factor to begin with.
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  #43  
Old 10-13-2014, 11:04 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Over the week-end I had a buddy drive the Jeep as we went out for dinner. He is looking to get into a 2014 (slightly used) Hemi Overland so he wanted to test drive my car.

He did the unthinkable: turned off the ECO mode. I noticed that the car did not go into AERO mode at speeds of 60 mph. On the other hand he also put it in SPORT and the car never reached 8th gear, cruising in 7th and in AERO mode.

I guess I did not really pay attention to these details. For me it is either SPORT or ECO.
You're the only person so far who says that the GC will not go into Aero mode with ECO off. Mine will always go into Aero mode at highway speeds no matter if I'm in ECO, Sport, etc.... as of right now, no way to prevent it from going into Aero mode when on the highway at all.
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  #44  
Old 10-13-2014, 11:34 AM
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Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
Actually, no. I have a background in electonics.....specifically automotive electronics. If you want to talk shop, that's fine. "A pin with a signal on this bus" isn't what I said. The bus does in fact send a signal (yes, a signal. All electrical impulses can be defined as a signal. That's pretty basic stuff there, bud) to a pin-out that will enable or disable Aero mode. How exactly do you think Aero mode is enabled/disabled? Hint: it's an electrical signal. You can play the semantic games all you want, but at the end of the day it's an electrical signal, just like everything else in the vehicle.
Actually I suspect you're playing the semantics here. But...go ahead and cut the CAN bus lines to your ASCM. Notably, ALL of your air suspension features will no longer work, you'll get multiple error codes, and your toy will no longer be much fun anymore.

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Let me know where to send your cookie.
Awesome. Love cookies. Except straight sugar cookies. Too bland.

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Yup, and after all that "logic" occurs, a SIGNAL is sent to go into or out of Aero mode. Not sure why you can't get this through your head, but once again, I'm not talking about re-engineering the system. I'm simply talking about preventing (or blocking) the signal to enter Aero mode. Again, this isn't rocket science and it's certainly not nearly as complicated as you're tying to make it out to be.
Well...except that's not what happens. First, nobody refers to multi-byte messages on a communications bus as "signals" in general unless you're talking low-level modulation techniques--which you are not. But I'll assume you're just mixing up your wording. As I indicated before, the ASCM is requesting data from other modules such as vehicle speed, etc. it then uses that data internally to decide whether or not to enter Aero mode. It doesn't get a "signal" or message from anywhere else telling it to do this.

Quote:
LOL....okay, lets take another approach, since you have such a hard time wrapping your head around this. After all is said and done, and the "magic" happens, how does the vehicle mechanically get into Aero mode? How does that happen? Does it take magic? Or is there an electrical signal that causes the suspension height to change via enabling or disabling Aero mode? Think about it....
I have thought about it. Quite a bit. Once the ASCM makes the decision to enter Aero mode it activates the appropriate valves on the valve block and turns the compressor on. Using the height sensors, it determines when the appropriate height has been reached and then shuts off the compressor and reconfigures the valve block.

So...your plan is to do what? Block the compressor? If the ASCM commands the compressor on and no height change occurs, it will throw suspension fault codes. Plus, if you block the compressor, why have an air suspension--you just lost all the other features of it as well. Hence...not really a good "mod."

Quote:
OMG....you really don't understand, do you? Again, I'm not questioning HOW the decision is made to go into Aero mode or not. I'm talking about preventing it by interrupting the signal that enables Aero mode.
No...I get it. I get that you aren't used to looking at systems as a whole and aren't seeing the consequences here.

Quote:
Of course you won't wager...because you know that you'll lose.
No...I just am getting more and more of the impression that you're an inexperienced kid. OMG? Really? Anyway, this is fine but you're talking about things that you're not very fluent in and trying to tell others incorrect information as if you have solved this dilemma in a fashion that is so crazy it's amazing nobody else can see it.

Quote:
And you just admitted yourself that it would be easy to prevent the vehicle from entering Aero mode by simply pulling a fuse. Wow, Einstein, that was very progressive thinking on your part. If I can simply pull a fuse to disable Aero mode (as you admitted), then what in the world makes you think that I can't do the same thing by interrupting the signal in the first place?
How did you know Einstein was my call sign in the Navy?

Pulling the fuse will completely disable your air suspension. That includes ANY height change--including load leveling and temperature accommodation. I don't think that's what anyone has in mind as a good modification. That's kind of like saying you can get better fuel efficiency by not having an engine. It's true, but kind of defeats the purpose.

You want to specifically disable Aero mode by itself. It's assumed you want your suspension to operate normally otherwise. Without a rather involved engineered solution that goes well beyond pulling fuses this isn't going to happen. You'll set fault codes or disable other aspects (or the whole) of the suspension as well any other way.

Quote:
BTW, any fault codes set by pulling the fuse would be temporary and would go away when the fuse was put back in. But in the meantime, Aero mode would not be achieved. So what makes you think that it would not be possible (but admittedly crude) to put mount a switch in the cabin for that fused circuit?
Newsflash--the car won't blow up, the suspension won't bottom out, and Aero mode will in fact not happen either. That's not exactly the way I'd do it, but it would work. No doubt about it.

You are aware that the suspension also load levels and makes temperature based adjustments as well right? You're talking about disabling the entire thing. No, the car won't blow up--but I don't think anyone besides yourself would find that to be an actual solution. If you read back to my last message, I distinctly said you could not do this "easily" without also sacrificing the rest of your suspension features. That holds true here still--you're backtracking and saying you can disable Aero mode by basically killing the entire system manually and living with the fault codes. Go ahead--but like I said I can save you gas money to by tearing out your engine too. I'm just not certain anyone would really want that

So...if this is easy, please do tell everyone how you would do this? How are you going to disable Aero mode ONLY without causing fault codes and disabling the entire suspension? If it's so easy, it should be a quick description for you to put down on here.
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  #45  
Old 10-13-2014, 12:20 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
That's not exactly the way I'd do it, but it would work. No doubt about it.
Here's your chance. I pulled the diagrams for the ASCM and system. Here are the available inputs and outputs for you to play with:

FUSED B(+) [Battery positive -- fused]
GND [Chassis ground]
RUN/START RELAY [(Output) From run/start relay]
CAN C (+) [CAN C (high speed) (+)]
CAN C (-) [CAN C (high speed) (-)]
COMPRESSOR RELAY FEED [Compressor relay current feed]
COMPRESSOR RELAY RTN [Compressor relay current return (GND)]
COMPRESSOR TEMP [Compressor temperature sensor feed]
COMPRESSOR TEMP RTN [Compressor temperature sensor return (GND)]
REVERSE VALVE UNIT 1 [Reverse valve input (1)]
REVERSE VALVE UNIT 2 [Reverse valve input (2)]
REVERSE VALVE CONTROL [Reverse valve control (1 & 2)]
AIR TANK ENABLE SOLENOID [Air Tank activation solenoid]
AXLE VENT SOLENOID FR [Front right axle vent solenoid]
AXLE VENT SOLENOID RL [Rear left axle vent solenoid]
AXLE VENT SOLENOID RR [Rear right axle vent solenoid]
AXLE VENT SOLENOID RL [Front left axle vent solenoid]
VALVE BODY FEED [Valve body feed line]
SENSOR RTN [Common sensor return]
PRESSURE SENSOR [Valve body pressure sensor]
SENSOR FEED [Common sensor feed]
RF HEIGHT SENSOR PWR [Right front height sensor power]
RF HEIGHT SENSOR RTN [Right front height sensor return (GND)]
RF HEIGHT SENSOR SIGNAL [Right front height sensor signal]
LF HEIGHT SENSOR PWR [Left front height sensor power]
LF HEIGHT SENSOR RTN [Left front height sensor return (GND)]
LF HEIGHT SENSOR SIGNAL [Left front height sensor signal]
RR HEIGHT SENSOR PWR [Right rear height sensor power]
RR HEIGHT SENSOR RTN [Right rear height sensor return (GND)]
RR HEIGHT SENSOR SIGNAL [Right rear height sensor signal]
LR HEIGHT SENSOR PWR [Left rear height sensor power]
LR HEIGHT SENSOR RTN [Left rear height sensor return (GND)]
LR HEIGHT SENSOR SIGNAL [Left rear height sensor signal]

Now here's your goal: Disable AERO mode without disabling the entire suspension, causing the rest of the system to operate incorrectly, or causing fault codes (which disable the suspension, FYI) in a simple, straightforward manner requiring no serious engineering or design effort (as you did say this would be simple).

Challenges:
1) Most suspension fault codes result in the system being disabled until the detected fault being cleared on the next key cycle. "Service Air Suspension" will also be displayed for many.
2) Disabling the compressor, air tank, valve body, or height sensors will cause accompanying suspension fault codes when a height change is commanded by the ASCM and none occurs, and the vehicle is in motion and/or height variation is occuring in other respects (such as normal road undulations). If the vehicle is not in motion, after several tries, the ASCM will disable the suspension until a height variation is detected or vehicle motion is detected (lift mode for service).
3) "Offsetting" the height sensors will only result in all modes being at a different height base point. The vehicle will still enter Aero mode and will still drop 0.6 inches from its base point.
4) Multiple codes will likely be set in the ABS module and Body Control Module (BCM) if the ASCM does not respond during key-on cycling. This will also occur if the height control buttons are actuated and the ASCM does not respond to the BCM (the buttons are handled through the BCM, not the ASCM. The BCM sends messages to the ASCM when the buttons are actuated and conditions allow).

Have at it...
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  #46  
Old 10-14-2014, 01:49 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
You're the only person so far who says that the GC will not go into Aero mode with ECO off. Mine will always go into Aero mode at highway speeds no matter if I'm in ECO, Sport, etc.... as of right now, no way to prevent it from going into Aero mode when on the highway at all.
Despite what f1anatic wrote, ALL 2011-2015 WK2s go into Aero Mode at speeds around 60-65 MPH. If he already had it in Sport Mode (which I suspect), Aero Mode had already been achieved.

And I'm still waiting to see when MSCA either admits that he is wrong about how easy it would be to modify the WK2 Aero Mode, or somehow figures it out AND proves he's method works.

But I won't be holding my breathe on the latter happening.

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  #47  
Old 10-14-2014, 06:34 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Here's your chance. I pulled the diagrams for the ASCM and system. Here are the available inputs and outputs for you to play with:

What that information tells me is that there are too damn many sensors in today's vehicles.

I think I'm going to take my service manager up on his offer to find me a 1966 Dodge Dart.


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  #48  
Old 10-14-2014, 09:28 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

Bill, my first car was a 1969 Dodge Dart with the straight 6...it was my 21st birthday present. And the last car I had with a black interior... I remember wanting to get it painted purple and wanting to put those white spoked wheels on it that were so popular at that time period. (late 1970s)
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2012 GC Overland Summit - Winter Chill with New Saddle interior. 5.7L HEMI V8 - Pirelli Scorpion Verde Plus "shoes" - LED fogs and DRLs



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