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  #61  
Old 10-14-2014, 10:24 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

The way these systems are designed, there are no signals that you can easily manipulate to change ride height outside the programmed parameters without causing problems. In the best case, you end up having some sort of semi-functioning, "unhappy" system that is setting lots of faults. Worst case you end up with damaged components and/or a dangerous vehicle.

Remember that ride height is a dynamic feedback system with the ASCM monitoring suspension heights at all four corners and adjusting them up or down to meet their programmed heights by adding or relieving pressure in each individual air spring. The ONLY way to properly change the operation of the system is through reprogramming of the system, and I hightly doubt anyone here is going to do that. I also doubt that those who could wouldn't. I have worked with air and hydraulic suspension systems on Audis (Allroads, Q7), Mercedes (S, Gs, MLs - check out "rodeo mode" on an S class with hydraulic suspension - that is fun), Porsches (Cayenne), VW (Touareg) etc. With each I have seen people try to change things for whatever reason. Rarely do these changes work without some negative side effect, and I have never seen a change that I would consider worthwhile. Different, yes, worthwhile, no.

Here is a bone. Rumor has it that by fudging the calibrations for the ride height sensors with the factory diagnostic tools you can adjust the suspension up or down, but even if you know what you are doing with that it can have some bad side effects. My guess is that even doing that you would only be able to lower the suspension, not raise it. This has been done with other vehicles with what some would consider success. If you have access to a wiTECH tool and want to experiment, that IMO, is your best option. I do and I wouldn't. YMMV.

I say "Go for it!". I will sit back with my popcorn.

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  #62  
Old 10-14-2014, 10:35 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Qmulus View Post
Here is a bone. Rumor has it that by fudging the calibrations for the ride height sensors with the factory diagnostic tools you can adjust the suspension up or down, but even if you know what you are doing with that it can have some bad side effects. My guess is that even doing that you would only be able to lower the suspension, not raise it. This has been done with other vehicles with what some would consider success. If you have access to a wiTECH tool and want to experiment, that IMO, is your best option. I do and I wouldn't. YMMV.

I say "Go for it!". I will sit back with my popcorn. Some people just like to mess with things...

You can pretty easily change the "base height" of the suspension using the WiTech tool. You just have to change the calibration offsets. You can go either way...but increasing the base height will likely put you at the stops in OR2 (which will overtax the compressor as it keeps trying to raise the vehicle and can't--eventually throwing a fault) or potentially damage the air springs. Agreed...I wouldn't do this either. But some people might find use for it.
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  #63  
Old 10-14-2014, 10:56 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
You can pretty easily change the "base height" of the suspension using the WiTech tool. You just have to change the calibration offsets. You can go either way...but increasing the base height will likely put you at the stops in OR2 (which will overtax the compressor as it keeps trying to raise the vehicle and can't--eventually throwing a fault) or potentially damage the air springs. Agreed...I wouldn't do this either. But some people might find use for it.
Yup, either way you will give up something. Too high at speed also makes for a tippy vehicle. Too low can have you bottoming out and damaging expensive bits. A "mod" that makes your car look cool can also make it dangerous in ways you never thought of. (google "automotive moose test")

As someone who has worked through OE Tier 1 automotive electronics design, validation, test and production, I KNOW there is a lot going on and good reasons for all of it. If anyone thinks that there are easy ways to bypass or "improve on" these systems, they must be a lot smarter that a whole lot of very good engineers. Maybe they are. Doubt it...
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  #64  
Old 10-14-2014, 11:12 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

This guy has been doing it for Landrovers for a while and seems to have it sussed for the GC too, he just needs to source some PnP connectors to make it simple to install:

Llams PTY LTD

I wouldn't expect this system is 'easy' to build, but it doesn't seem as complex as some are suggesting either.... without knowing how he has done it.

edit:

Some info on how he did it:

The system modifies height sensor signals to cause the suspension ecu to think that the vehicle is too low or high and makes use of its self-levelling function. The suspension ecu will wait for about 5 seconds before adjusting heights as it does for any self-levelling, unless a height mode change is occurring whereby both changes will be implemented together. +30mm provides improved bump-stop clearance and thus better ride without using full off-road height. -20mm is LR's 160kph+ height.
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  #65  
Old 10-14-2014, 11:23 PM
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Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
This guy has been doing it for Landrovers for a while and seems to have it sussed for the GC too, he just needs to source some PnP connectors to make it simple to install:

Llams PTY LTD

I wouldn't expect this system is 'easy' to build, but it doesn't seem as complex as some are suggesting either.... without knowing how he has done it.

Actually he has a "semi-complex" engineered solution--which is exactly the starting point for what you would need to do this the right way. The argument was about the claim that it could be done "easily"--by simply looking at some wiring diagrams and using a very simple setup to just intercept a "signal" to make the desired outcome (no Aero mode switch) without affecting the rest of the suspension operation or causing errors.

This person's solution took some effort--including a new controller that he developed to go inline with the existing one. It's the starting point for type of thing I'd expect to see for a real solution.

However--as you said it seems to work on the principle of modifying the incoming height sensor values (much as if you'd changed the calibration values with the factory scan tool)...but perhaps with a bit more flexibility as it can be changed on the fly. From what I see though, it isn't able to inhibit the standard mode changes of the suspension inherently--just change the base height they use. Since he has an actual controller he is using you might be able to get more flexible with that--especially if you design in a link to the CAN bus.
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  #66  
Old 10-14-2014, 11:48 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Actually he has a "complex" engineered solution--which is exactly what you would need to do this the right way. The argument was about the claim that it could be done "easily"--by simply looking at some wiring diagrams and using a very simple setup to just intercept a "signal" to make the desired outcome without affecting the rest of the suspension operation or causing errors.

This person's solution took some serious development effort--including a new ECU that he developed to go inline with the existing one. It's the type of thing I'd expect to see for a real solution. Not easy to develop by any means and I applaud the work he seems to have put into it.
Sure, as I said: I wouldn't expect this system is 'easy' to build.

But this guy just built this thing in his spare time, so relative to some things, some people might call it easy, certainly not as difficult as some have suggested in this thread.

If you want more details of how he built the original unit for the landrover, you can follow the thread here, his username is GraemeS:

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Keeping the suspension "UP".

It's an interesting read as he works through the challenges and changes his approach.
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  #67  
Old 10-14-2014, 11:50 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
However--as you said it seems to work on the principle of modifying the incoming height sensor values (much as if you'd changed the calibration values with the factory scan tool)...but perhaps with a bit more flexibility as it can be changed on the fly. From what I see though, it isn't able to inhibit the standard mode changes of the suspension inherently--just change the base height they use. Since he has an actual controller he is using you might be able to get more flexible with that--especially if you design in a link to the CAN bus.
Sorry, I missed your edit.... yes in the original version height changes are applied on top of his recallibration. So some common sense is required. Unless he has made enhancements on his later versions.....
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  #68  
Old 10-15-2014, 12:00 AM
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Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
Sorry, I missed your edit.... yes in the original version height changes are applied on top of his recallibration. So some common sense is required. Unless he has made enhancements on his later versions.....

It's a cool project. As I said much earlier this CAN (get it? CAN? ) be done. It just isn't going to be easy. If you want to go full-out you can get on the CAN bus between the ASCM and the rest of the system. Then, with a bit of clever programming you can set up almost anything.
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  #69  
Old 10-15-2014, 11:00 AM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
It's a cool project. As I said much earlier this CAN (get it? CAN? ) be done. It just isn't going to be easy. If you want to go full-out you can get on the CAN bus between the ASCM and the rest of the system. Then, with a bit of clever programming you can set up almost anything.
There are a few companies that make systems for playing with late model active suspension systems. KW has one that works with many late model vehicles with air suspension. It even has an app so you can play with your suspension on your phone. Oh boy.

No, I wouldn't put it in, even if it were given to me, but for someone that has to play, there are options. My guess is that it works the same way as the one for the old Discos linked to earlier by playing with ride height pot values. That is about the only way you are going to be able to mess with the suspension with the least risk of upsetting the system. It WILL put the system outside designed parameters, obviously, so there WILL be side effects. It is also goes inline with the ASCM, so you can remove it before you take it to the dealer to get the air springs replaced that you blew because it was too low...
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:27 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Right. But you won't share what your plan is. Okay...'nuff said on that.
Why do you even care? All you've been saying is that I can't do it. So if you're so sure of yourself, then my plan shouldn't matter to you. I get the feeling that you somehow get off on telling people that you're right and they're wrong. Sorry, but I'm not playing that game with you anymore. Enough is enough already. I'll get the last laugh when I achieve my goal. That's right, I said my goal. You can go and live your life now.
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:33 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Okay. Have fun with your phantom plan that you can't share (mainly because you don't have one, or are afraid that when scrutinized it won't work). That's cool

But...if you REALLY want a wager....mainly because of morbid curiosity:

I'll wager you that you can't get rid of Aero mode ONLY without:

1) Disabling the entire suspension or making other parts of it not work or work incorrectly. FYI: if you disable power to the ASCM and it "boots up" from being reactivated while the vehicle is in motion it will disable itself until the next key cycle due to a fault condition--it assumes it crashed and is not operating reliably. If your idea was to use your own speed sensor to trip the power...you might want to re-think it. Besides...if you're adding new sensors aren't you trying to re-engineer it?
2) Causing error conditions -- this includes other systems not functioning properly and/or throwing fault codes.

Your solution must be "easy"--I'd say you should be able to complete it within a week. The solution should have the original, desired effect of eliminating only Aero mode.

The solution must be fully described, and reproducible by others using your write-up. I will reproduce it myself as well, and will use a Chrysler scan tool to verify operation.

And no...we won't go back to your just needing to show a video of Aero mode not happening. We won't go back to just pulling fuses--I think everyone here would agree that was not the spirit or intention of this conversation in the very beginning--and I made reference to that early on in post #23--to which you continued to argue.

On these conditions I will bet you, and you can name the bet under these conditions.
You have got to be kidding me.....how many times do I have to tell you that YOU aren't setting the rules/conditions here? Can't you get that thru your thick skull? I said over and over again that I could easily prevent my vehicle from going into Aero mode at highway speeds. I didn't put any conditions on that statement.

Then of course you tell me that it can't easily be done....but then you backpeddle and say that it can't easily be done without disabling the entire system...blah blah blah. You unwittingly admitted that it could be done, but had to put your own qualifiers in there to save face.

I'm done arguing this with you. I really am. I can 100% guarantee that I can achieve exactly what I said that I can achieve....and I will do it....but our conversation is over. If you want to continue, go right ahead. Have a one-sided conversation with me if you want.
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:34 PM
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Re: Aero mode even with ECO off?

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
You have got to be kidding me.....how many times do I have to tell you that YOU aren't setting the rules/conditions here? Can't you get that thru your thick skull? I said over and over again that I could easily prevent my vehicle from going into Aero mode at highway speeds. I didn't put any conditions on that statement.

Then of course you tell me that it can't easily be done....but then you backpeddle and say that it can't easily be done without disabling the entire system...blah blah blah. You unwittingly admitted that it could be done, but had to put your own qualifiers in there to save face.

I'm done arguing this with you. I really am. I can 100% guarantee that I can achieve exactly what I said that I can achieve....and I will do it....but our conversation is over. If you want to continue, go right ahead. Have a one-sided conversation with me if you want.

Cool. And now back to our regularly scheduled program...
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