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  #229  
Old 08-18-2013, 08:56 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by jp467 View Post
How did you get a service advisor to say anything? Any vehicle I have ever owned Chrysler and non-Chrysler I have always had the same answer when I ask if they have seen an issue before. It's always this is the first one. If I go in now with a known issue I just ask for my own entertainment.
I'm very good at building rapport with people like service advisors...I always ask for the same ones and build relationships with them...

For cars I've had for longer, I've had service advisors I've known for years and years...

Quote:
I don't disagree that makers like Toyota and Honda are know for better reliability it would be hard to dispute that fact, but if you look at quality ratings now the best to the worst are not that far apart. So if you have two vehicles that are not worlds apart in quality then its going to come down to appeal.
I personally consider my Grand Cherokee and my Toyota/Lexus vehicles "worlds apart" in terms of quality. Rankings are one thing, reputation is one thing, personal experience is another thing. I've had 6 Toyota/Lexus vehicles...my JGC has had way more work done to it before 30k miles than any of those vehicles EVER had done...even after 200,000 miles.

Quote:
A lot of those high quality cars are boring, so I would take a vehicle with a few more issues over that. I think that's why the Grand Cherokee's sales are through the ceiling, they can't even keep up with the demand.
I 100% agree, hence my and other poster's dilemmas where nothing compares with the JGC but we are stuck in unreliable units.

The JGC is selling very well (I don't know about "can't keep up with demand", dealers here still have some 2013s. Tons of inventory around here, every dealer has 70-80+ JGCs), think of how well it would sell if its reputation for reliability were better... Think of the brand loyalty if owners like us weren't disenfranchised...
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  #230  
Old 08-18-2013, 09:18 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
I'm very good at building rapport with people like service advisors...I always ask for the same ones and build relationships with them...

For cars I've had for longer, I've had service advisors I've known for years and years...



I personally consider my Grand Cherokee and my Toyota/Lexus vehicles "worlds apart" in terms of quality. Rankings are one thing, reputation is one thing, personal experience is another thing. I've had 6 Toyota/Lexus vehicles...my JGC has had way more work done to it before 30k miles than any of those vehicles EVER had done...even after 200,000 miles.



I 100% agree, hence my and other poster's dilemmas where nothing compares with the JGC but we are stuck in unreliable units.

The JGC is selling very well (I don't know about "can't keep up with demand", dealers here still have some 2013s. Tons of inventory around here, every dealer has 70-80+ JGCs), think of how well it would sell if its reputation for reliability were better... Think of the brand loyalty if owners like us weren't disenfranchised...
I have heard that the plant has been trying to keep up with orders for the 2014 models. Sometimes when a redesign hits the market its harder to get rid of those previous models because everyone wants the new one. I agree quality is something that needs to continue to improve. I do know though that people tend to be more critical of Chrysler than other brands probably because of the history.
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  #231  
Old 08-18-2013, 09:31 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by jp467 View Post
I have heard that the plant has been trying to keep up with orders for the 2014 models. Sometimes when a redesign hits the market its harder to get rid of those previous models because everyone wants the new one.
I mean...in the dealers around me I have easily 300 2014 JGCs to choose from on lots within 15 miles. If the plant can't keep up with orders...they must have outfitted the metro DC area first.

I also understand about the 2013s, but it just illustrates the fact that these vehicles are in ample supply. Selling well, but in ample supply. Its hard to sell the 2013s because discounting is so deep on the 2014s. I mean...theres a groupbuy in Tysons for invoice less 7%?!? Try and get that deal on a Toyota.

Quote:
I do know though that people tend to be more critical of Chrysler than other brands probably because of the history.
Who's fault is that though? They made their bed.
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  #232  
Old 08-18-2013, 09:40 PM
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SW03ES and others,

I am not a Jeep enthusiast, nor do I even own one yet.

I find it interesting that you quote service advisors as being experts on vehicle quality, consider this forum should show as a fact that most of them can't even search the word "Transmission" in dealer connect (yes there are good advisors too, but I was one once, and knowing everything bad that happens with a vehicle will taint your opinion).

Why not quote some actual numbers as you are so clearly versed in the number of failures.... let's say maybe C300 Mercedes because the volume numbers would line up. Actual transmission Failures in the 7tronic in the C series is actually nearly 3 fold of the Jeep Grand Cherokee(the last 3 years and failures meaning rebuild or replacement.)

Why not pick engine failures per capita, and we do need to look at a 3 year period as your advisors are talking past experiences. Pick any manufacturer of vehicles and I will find massive runs of vehicles requiring engine rip down and piston replacements or worse.... except the Hemi and the Pentastar in the Jeeps. The Jeep Pentastar even though the same engine has been 3 times more reliable in the Jeep than the Grand Caravan (again per capita I know there are many more minivans).

I work for every brand except Volvo and you know what they ALL have a $hitty time with refreshes and new builds.... Lambda platform took almost 5 years for GM to get straight.... sorry wait you only believe in off shore owned companies (per your quote). Why don't we look at Sienna minivans and all of the class action lawsuits about engine sludging!

Look you wanna talk quality put some numbers out there on a refresh that is going to sell over 250,000 units and give me per capita failures, not visiting the complaints dept. at a dealership (service)

I would love to see those numbers because despite my respect for AMC and his experiences... I can guarantee you Jeep as a brand is not leaving drivers on the side of the road stranded as often as MANY other car manufacturers. Who cares if the F'ing radio isn't perfect in the first few months. They are fixing problems unlike the great majority of automakers who launch products and it sits disfunctional for YEARS.

You wanna see some real quality, go buy a Benz and get constant MIL soon as the warranty is up. Sensor, Turbo, wiring.... I don't spend my days telling everyone in the Benz forum because they don't want to know about it.

Ford, sure amazing history... couldn't get the 4 liter V6 to idle right after about 50,000 miles in a lot of them. Or let's talk about the last escape Platform, AWD systems leaked from day one, they never recalled them, only fixed them when people complained.... seen lots get done more than once in less than 10,000 miles. They didn't get that sorted out until year 2 or 3 of production.

I don't mean to diminish a single problem that anyone has had here but let us stop with the anecdotal quality numbers. I see lots of people with real problems yes, and I feel bad for those people. This is not the old Chrysler and if you think for a second that any other car manufacturer builds these kind of numbers of a vehicle in a year on a completely new electrical platform and doesn't have similar problems.... please point them out with some numbers.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

I know a lot of vehicle service advisors across multiple makes. I used to consult with car dealerships for a living, I worked directly with sales and service people to help them develop systems to convert sales business to service business, and to convert service business back to sales. I've had many informal lunches with service advisors...that experience coupled with my many years of reading, posting on, and moderating car forums across multiple makes tells me that these Jeeps have reliability problems, and that in general when compared to makes like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc Chryslers are less reliable. I have been directly told by two Jeep service advisors at different dealerships I have had my Jeep at that they would never buy a Grand Cherokee because of the issues they've had.

You mention Ford, I didn't really. My family has owned Fords for 45+ years. I wouldn't make the statement that Ford is more reliable in general than Chrysler. I know most of those Ford vehicles were more reliable than my Jeep...but you read about issues on their forums. My experience with Ford would make me unafraid to buy one, lets just put it that way.

I can also tell you that I was warned by multiple people, family members, business associates, friends, before I got the Jeep...because Jeeps have a reputation of being unreliable. Back when I still recommended the Jeep, I got push back from people about them being unreliable. Like most rumors or prejudices...theres a kernel of truth there.

People make fun of Jaguars and Range Rovers because they were/are unreliable.

Remember...even with all of this that I've said if it were only my decision I would keep my Jeep or get another one. Thats a testament to how nice a vehicle it is, and how unbeatable a vehicle it could be if they worked through these issues and worked on this stigma.
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  #233  
Old 08-18-2013, 09:42 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
I mean...in the dealers around me I have easily 300 2014 JGCs to choose from on lots within 15 miles. If the plant can't keep up with orders...they must have outfitted the metro DC area first.

I also understand about the 2013s, but it just illustrates the fact that these vehicles are in ample supply. Selling well, but in ample supply. Its hard to sell the 2013s because discounting is so deep on the 2014s. I mean...theres a groupbuy in Tysons for invoice less 7%?!? Try and get that deal on a Toyota.



Who's fault is that though? They made their bed.

You could have 300 vehicles but that might not be filling all the orders to be at a 60plus day supply that they like to be at. You won't get below invoice around me.

I have seen people with multiple vehicles and they will put up with minor issues with those vehicles, but as soon as their Chrysler has one issue it has major quality problems.
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  #234  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:05 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by jp467 View Post
I have seen people with multiple vehicles and they will put up with minor issues with those vehicles, but as soon as their Chrysler has one issue it has major quality problems.
I am not that guy. Believe me I want nothing more for my Jeep to be great, and I was prepared for issues. I happily brought it in for warranty work until about the 10th failure, then I got frustrated. Bear in mind many service visits were for multiple issues at a time, not like its been in the shop 17 times. Thankfully, everything has been minor. But, I never seem to be able to just have the oil changed, there are always things wrong. Right now I am making a list for the next oil change. I've not had this experience with other vehicles.

Since Jeep doesn't do loaners, having the car in for warranty work is a huge pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willx
I find in interesting that you quote service advisors as being experts on vehicle quality, consider this forum should show as a fact that most of them can't even search the word "Transmission" in dealer connect (yes there are good advisors too, but I was one once, and knowing everything bad that happens with a vehicle will taint your opinion).
I don't consider them experts, but they do see vehicles come and go for service, and many of them have worked multiple brands. I have several that are still friends.

Quote:
Why not quote some actual numbers as you are so clearly versed in the number of failures.... let's say maybe C300 Mercedes because the volume numbers would line up. Actual transmission Failures in the 7tronic in the C series is actually nearly 3 fold of the Jeep Grand Cherokee(the last 3 years and failures meaning rebuild or replacement.)
Who claimed to have "actual numbers" of failures? There are a lot of people here who have problems, its obvious. Overall statistics from trusted sources such as JD Power show the car is behind its competitors when it comes to reliability. The brand's reputation when it comes to reliability is not good. Dealer service seems fairly universally accepted as being not great.

I'm not sure why you bring up Mercedes...for one much of the JGC comes from Mercedes...and I personally would not buy a Mercedes and expect anything but average reliability at best. You mention transmission failures...when thats not what anybody here is complaining about. You mention engine failures and nobody is having issues there either.

It seems to me that people's issues are mostly electrical (mine are, these issues illustrated in this thread mostly are (if you count a sunroof drain not connected at the factory, an issue I had as well, draining into a computer module), or have to do with poor workmanship from delivery.

Quote:
Who cares if the F'ing radio isn't perfect in the first few months.
LMAO!!!! LMAO!!! I ****ing care! I spent $40,000 on this vehicle and I want it to work dammit! If you don't care, then you deserve whatever hunk of crap a carmaker gives you. By your admission you don't even own one of these. Lets see you spend $40,000+ for one and then have to have it repaired under warranty 17 times before 30,000 miles, watch your mechanic break the rotors free from being corroded on the hubs at 26k miles, or like these poor SOBs have the thing die on the road honking and sputtering on you and see how forgiving you are then.

Lets see you do without a car for a week at a time while Jeep dealers fumble around in half-assed attempts to fix your multiple problems because Jeep won't give you a loaner. Lets see you argue with your wife about the Jeep you just had to have and she didn't want and what a mess it turned out to be. I was a big Jeep cheerleader at first, look up my old posts. These issues change your outlook real quick.

LOL, what a trip. "Who cares if the radio doesn't work" Hilarious.
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  #235  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:20 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
I am not that guy. Believe me I want nothing more for my Jeep to be great, and I was prepared for issues. I happily brought it in for warranty work until about the 10th failure, then I got frustrated. Bear in mind many service visits were for multiple issues at a time, not like its been in the shop 17 times. Thankfully, everything has been minor. But, I never seem to be able to just have the oil changed, there are always things wrong. Right now I am making a list for the next oil change. I've not had this experience with other vehicles.

Since Jeep doesn't do loaners, having the car in for warranty work is a huge pain.



I don't consider them experts, but they do see vehicles come and go for service, and many of them have worked multiple brands. I have several that are still friends.



Who claimed to have "actual numbers" of failures? There are a lot of people here who have problems, its obvious. Overall statistics from trusted sources such as JD Power show the car is behind its competitors when it comes to reliability. The brand's reputation when it comes to reliability is not good. Dealer service seems fairly universally accepted as being not great.

I'm not sure why you bring up Mercedes...for one much of the JGC comes from Mercedes...and I personally would not buy a Mercedes and expect anything but average reliability at best. You mention transmission failures...when thats not what anybody here is complaining about. You mention engine failures and nobody is having issues there either.

It seems to me that people's issues are mostly electrical (mine are, these issues illustrated in this thread mostly are (if you count a sunroof drain not connected at the factory, an issue I had as well, draining into a computer module), or have to do with poor workmanship from delivery.



LMAO!!!! LMAO!!! I ****ing care! I spent $40,000 on this vehicle and I want it to work dammit! If you don't care, then you deserve whatever hunk of crap a carmaker gives you. By your admission you don't even own one of these. Lets see you spend $40,000+ for one and then have to have it repaired under warranty 17 times before 30,000 miles, watch your mechanic break the rotors free from being corroded on the hubs at 26k miles, or like these poor SOBs have the thing die on the road honking and sputtering on you and see how forgiving you are then.

Lets see you do without a car for a week at a time while Jeep dealers fumble around in half-assed attempts to fix your multiple problems because Jeep won't give you a loaner. Lets see you argue with your wife about the Jeep you just had to have and she didn't want and what a mess it turned out to be. I was a big Jeep cheerleader at first, look up my old posts. These issues change your outlook real quick.

LOL, what a trip. "Who cares if the radio doesn't work" Hilarious.
Its sounds like your vehicle has been reliable. Its never had to be towed right? From what you describe it sounds like you have just had some minor issues that come up as part of owning a vehicle. I'm sure you must be at least happy it has never broke down? Nothing is perfect and no vehicle is perfect and I think the quality will continue to improve.
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  #236  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:25 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by jp467 View Post
Its sounds like your vehicle has been reliable. Its never had to be towed right? From what you describe it sounds like you have just had some minor issues that come up as part of owning a vehicle. I'm sure you must be at least happy it has never broke down? Nothing is perfect and no vehicle is perfect and I think the quality will continue to improve.
LOL! No. A vehicle having 17 warranty failures is not "minor issues that come up as a part of owning a vehicle". I should not have to "at least be happy my Jeep hasn't had to be towed" when its not even 2 years old yet and only has 33,000 miles on it. I've had other vehicles that have had over 200,000 miles on them and have never had to be towed. Thats something to be happy about. Again remember...its not even two years old so I have plenty of opportunities left for it to break down and need to be towed.

I've had the driver and rear hatch lock buttons replaced, the driver side twice, the rear window latch button replaced, rear window leak repaired twice, cruise control switch replaced twice, EVIC control pad replaced, HVAC control pad replaced. Radio HU replaced, multiple rattles replaced, the USB port in the console repaired, full front brakes replaced, steering rack replaced, ignition switch replaced...remember all within the first 2 years and 30k miles.

If you think this is "reliable", be sure you never own anything but a Chrysler
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  #237  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:37 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
LOL! No. A vehicle having 17 warranty failures is not "minor issues that come up as a part of owning a vehicle". I should not have to "at least be happy my Jeep hasn't had to be towed" when its not even 2 years old yet and only has 33,000 miles on it. I've had other vehicles that have had over 200,000 miles on them and have never had to be towed. Thats something to be happy about. Again remember...its not even two years old so I have plenty of opportunities left for it to break down and need to be towed.

I've had the driver and rear hatch lock buttons replaced, the driver side twice, the rear window latch button replaced, rear window leak repaired twice, cruise control switch replaced twice, EVIC control pad replaced, HVAC control pad replaced. Radio HU replaced, multiple rattles replaced, the USB port in the console repaired, full front brakes replaced, steering rack replaced, ignition switch replaced...remember all within the first 2 years and 30k miles.

If you think this is "reliable", be sure you never own anything but a Chrysler
Its reliable in the sense that you have never had to walk as a result of any of this. It does sound like a lot of switches have gone bad, but at least you have had it all replaced under warranty and have not needed a tow truck. I know you say it could break down, but the point is it has not and it might never break down. You might get to that 200K miles without a breakdown. Are you having any issues now or has everything been corrected?
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  #238  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:44 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by jp467 View Post
Its reliable in the sense that you have never had to walk as a result of any of this. It does sound like a lot of switches have gone bad, but at least you have had it all replaced under warranty and have not needed a tow truck.
But you have to understand thats not anything to be excited about...I don't want a vehicle I constantly have problems with whether those problems leave me stranded or not, and in 3k miles the warranty is over and I'm going to start paying for these things. You must understand my frustration.

Quote:
I know you say it could break down, but the point is it has not and it might never break down. You might get to that 200K miles without a breakdown. Are you having any issues now or has everything been corrected?
But can you understand my desire to have a vehicle that I am not worried about breaking down? Can you understand my concerns with this Jeep leaving warranty?

Still have a couple issues. Theres a rattle in the passenger dash coming from the glovebox door handle, and a rattle in the steering column although I believe theres a TSB for that. The rattles to me aren't a big deal, its the component failures that are a problem. Theres an intermittent issue with the volume freezing on the radio, where it can't be adjusted up or down. HU was replaced to deal with that but its happened a couple times since then.

Had to have the wheels balanced, but thats a wear item. Tires will need to be replaced before winter, which also isn't anything to do with the Jeep but having to drop $1,000 on tires adds to the decision that needs to be made.
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  #239  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:52 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
But you have to understand thats not anything to be excited about...I don't want a vehicle I constantly have problems with whether those problems leave me stranded or not, and in 3k miles the warranty is over and I'm going to start paying for these things. You must understand my frustration.



But can you understand my desire to have a vehicle that I am not worried about breaking down? Can you understand my concerns with this Jeep leaving warranty?

Still have a couple issues. Theres a rattle in the passenger dash coming from the glovebox door handle, and a rattle in the steering column although I believe theres a TSB for that. The rattles to me aren't a big deal, its the component failures that are a problem. Theres an intermittent issue with the volume freezing on the radio, where it can't be adjusted up or down. HU was replaced to deal with that but its happened a couple times since then.

Had to have the wheels balanced, but thats a wear item. Tires will need to be replaced before winter, which also isn't anything to do with the Jeep but having to drop $1,000 on tires adds to the decision that needs to be made.

I understand the frustration and the pain in the a** of having to take your vehicle in for service. I Had some issues with my 2011 when I had it and it is a pain and its an even bigger pain when they don't know how to fix it. My 2014 has been pretty awesome so far I have had it about 6 months now. I think you said in a previous post you were thinking about buying a 14 correct?
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  #240  
Old 08-18-2013, 11:00 PM
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My Jeep: 2002 4.0L TJ
 
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We probably all need to take a step back here...

There is definitely a joy in a car that goes 150-200k miles without issues. I have had them. A Forester and a Lumina Eurosport. They were awesome. Unfortunately, it seems like today you either have to buy an appliance that is pretty reliable but has no soul, or you get something you love to drive but know you are going to have issues with.

It sucks. But this is how it seems to be.

As to your issues in 30k miles, I totally understand where you are coming from, but you have to understand we are probably a little more emotional for having had these issues - yours in quantity, mine in severity. Either way, they are annoying as hell. Some people just aren't going to validate that as much as you'd like though. It's just how it is. The one thing I did is made sure I leased so I could walk away, and that I bought from a dealer that offered loaners. Thank god because I would have been out easily another $1K in rental fees or more. A cheap car here rents for $50 a day after taxes (20% or something near that on rentals).

I think all we can do is reduce our risk when we buy vehicles we love (any brand) that we know might not be completely without issues. Hopefully in a few years, things will be even better. Would be nice if we could just buy what we love and be happy without all these other factors. Hopefully they are serious about working on it because I sure would love to buy a new Jeep again in three years when our Forester lease is up.
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