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  #241  
Old 08-18-2013, 11:01 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp467
I think you said in a previous post you were thinking about buying a 14 correct?
Yep, I would try a 2014 on a lease to give them another shot, I like the vehicle enough to do that.

Wife is angrier than me (its her car and her who is left without a car when its in the shop), but she's relented somewhat...we'll see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc2002
Unfortunately, it seems like today you either have to buy an appliance that is pretty reliable but has no soul, or you get something you love to drive but know you are going to have issues with.
It does seem that way...

Quote:
ither way, they are annoying as hell. Some people just aren't going to validate that as much as you'd like though.
They haven't had the experience. If they did, they'd get it. I was the same way before mine became a problem.

Definitely going to lease, and unfortunately none of the Jeep dealers around here do loaners.

For us I think its between another Jeep, an Acura MDX or an Infiniti JX35/QX60. I liked the MDX okay, its kind of bland inside and out, but it drives well and has a sporty character and some masculinity. I like the JX okay, its attractive from the front and nice inside. Its a CVT which I dislike but was okay to drive.

Or, of course buying a warranty and keeping this one...but with the warranty and tires thats an outlay of $3k or so, might be better to just get into something else.
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  #242  
Old 08-18-2013, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

For us I think its between another Jeep, an Acura MDX or an Infiniti JX35/QX60. I liked the MDX okay, its kind of bland inside and out, but it drives well and has a sporty character and some masculinity. I like the JX okay, its attractive from the front and nice inside. Its a CVT which I dislike but was okay to drive.
Yeah, our new Forester will be a CVT. I guess I will deal. It just sucks that we have to even consider these other vehicles when we know what our heart really wants. But at some point - a point some of us have reached - you just have to say I think for at least a little while I want something I have a better shot at never having to worry about. It's funny - for a while now I have been buying appliances and had no issues. I went to them when my VW had all kinds of problems and I figured for a while, I want to have something that never breaks down. It actually worked because all those cars were rock solid. With the Jeep, I took a chance thinking I might have just a couple minor issues. Now one experience with a car I really loved and I am headed back to the appliances. Some of them have been nice appliances to be sure, but there certainly ain't nothing like a Jeep in the appliance world.
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  #243  
Old 08-19-2013, 05:56 AM
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Good ole Flame war lol. All cars are mass produced machines and every manufacturer turns up certain % of lemons. If you get dealt a bad one life sucks but there is a process every manufacturer has to deal with it, you move on, its over. You can argue all day about which brand is better, American vs foreign etc. To those who hate Jeep the door is always open, go buy whichever car you like and go out and enjoy it.
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  #244  
Old 08-19-2013, 07:28 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

Who claimed to have "actual numbers" of failures? There are a lot of people here who have problems, its obvious. Overall statistics from trusted sources such as JD Power show the car is behind its competitors when it comes to reliability. The brand's reputation when it comes to reliability is not good. Dealer service seems fairly universally accepted as being not great.
I see the actual repair summaries, sure 174 problems out of 100 Jeeps (JD Power) but in JD Power world a visor replacement is the same as an engine replacements as far as reliability is concerned.


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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

I'm not sure why you bring up Mercedes...for one much of the JGC comes from Mercedes...and I personally would not buy a Mercedes and expect anything but average reliability at best. You mention transmission failures...when thats not what anybody here is complaining about. You mention engine failures and nobody is having issues there either.
I mention Mercedes because you did, I can never understand why people in a forum are not sure why I bring something up that they themselves mentioned.... "They have consumers coming from brands like Toyota/Honda, even Lexus, MB". I would say coming from a Mercedes I do have the same high expectations, and I doubt that I will have the major problems with the Jeep Grand Cherokee, at lease the information that I have seen would point to that. Again I will mention that JD Power looks at a computer failure the same as a Warranty trim replacement... One I assure you leaves the driver standing on the side of the road.

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

It seems to me that people's issues are mostly electrical (mine are, these issues illustrated in this thread mostly are (if you count a sunroof drain not connected at the factory, an issue I had as well, draining into a computer module), or have to do with poor workmanship from delivery.
I agree with you 100%, and maybe I should clarify, I am not angry at you and yes some of what you are saying is correct about many of the initial quality issues. I think still having the same sunroof drain issues over and over again is poor workmanship and even guys like Chevyboy would scratch their head because I don't know how that has not been addressed yet.

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

LMAO!!!! LMAO!!! I ****ing care! I spent $40,000 on this vehicle and I want it to work dammit! If you don't care, then you deserve whatever hunk of crap a carmaker gives you. By your admission you don't even own one of these. Lets see you spend $40,000+ for one and then have to have it repaired under warranty 17 times before 30,000 miles, watch your mechanic break the rotors free from being corroded on the hubs at 26k miles, or like these poor SOBs have the thing die on the road honking and sputtering on you and see how forgiving you are then.
Ha, OK got me there, I should have said, Who cares if the radio needs to be replaced once. 17 times is excessive for sure, but my concerns still stand.... We are NOT talking about transmission replacements and engine failures and I think people should be eyes wide open on this. There are numerous vehicles now on the road tipping past the 100k and having oil consumption issues and some really major long term reliability issues. Funny enough, Chrysler isn't having that issue??? interesting that they also have not done Direct Injection in Petrol cars yet either???

As for the Rotors Comment, even the Lexus I had years ago did that. I learned that in the driving environment I have that I need to spend the $100.00 once per year and have the brakes fully cleaned and serviced. In that I have seen a 20-30% better service life on the brakes due to more even, fron/back wear, so it picks up some but not all of the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post

Lets see you do without a car for a week at a time while Jeep dealers fumble around in half-assed attempts to fix your multiple problems because Jeep won't give you a loaner. Lets see you argue with your wife about the Jeep you just had to have and she didn't want and what a mess it turned out to be. I was a big Jeep cheerleader at first, look up my old posts. These issues change your outlook real quick.

LOL, what a trip. "Who cares if the radio doesn't work" Hilarious.
Yes, many Jeep dealers suck, I certainly get that and I guess as a consultant I have been lucky to work with some good ones. I honestly can say I didn't realize how bad some dealers were until I gave members here simple straight forward instructions and the dealer couldn't figure it out. I didn't edit out your trip comment as yes clearly poor wording on my part, but I am looking at the longer run here.

I want to make sure that I do not downplay the serious issues that people have had and I wish that on no one. What I am saying is that I have been that guy with the trailer in tow, whole family in the car and 700 miles away from home with loss of all power (like can't get over 30 on a flat surface, forget driving up a hill). I have been left with cars dead on the side of the highway, I have been in a rental car for more than 3 weeks, and lastly I have had to take the same car back and complain about the same problem to a dealer more than 4 times in two months and then have that vehicle breakdown because of the issues I was asking to be fixed.... I completly understand poor Service, if you read anywhere in this forum about my last Mercedes, it Involves the left rear wheel falling off on the highway the day after they refinshed all four of my rims they destroyed.

So I will sum up my opinion neatly in a few points that we can discuss further if you like:
-Yes, initial problems with the JGC are higher than what is acceptable.
-Do I think this is a systematic quality issue that will plague this vehicle even towards the end of this year, No.
-Does having terrible dealers make for repeat visits and improper fixes, Yes.
-Do I consider the combination of engineering and build quality to be poor on the Jeep Grand Cherokee in general, NO.

My problem is after the majority of my life involving the automotive industry in general, I see things differently now. If we go strictly by JD Power which keeps getting quoted GMC rated second, well guess which company is having massive amounts of engine failures just on the edge of warranty (so some don't get covered).... If you know some advisors you should talk to them about this because it isn't just the V8s, it is the 4 cyl (chains and oil consumption) the V6 (Chains and oil consumption) and the V8 (Oil consumption). I can very rarely visit a GM store now adays and not see an engine ripped appart. Also when I check the actual numbers I see that this is a huge problem. Ok so you may point out that GMC moves way down the pack for dependability, still means nothing, Buick is way up there and again Engine AND Transmission failures plague the most popular vehicles in this brand.

No one is completely wrong here and no one is completely correct. But I completely disagree with labeling Jeep Grand Cherokee from 2011 forward with poor quality. Maybe I just feel stronger about the old fashion quality that meant it lasted down the road and that is more important to me.
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  #245  
Old 08-19-2013, 09:15 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

This thread has become a war of attrition, and I just became a casualty.
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  #246  
Old 08-19-2013, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Willx View Post
No one is completely wrong here and no one is completely correct. But I completely disagree with labeling Jeep Grand Cherokee from 2011 forward with poor quality. Maybe I just feel stronger about the old fashion quality that meant it lasted down the road and that is more important to me.
Amen. I wouldn't call it poor quality either. Not overall. I would say initial defects seem high. Quality will be determined over the coming decade, and as you say, is another thing entirely. That jury will be out for a while.
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  #247  
Old 08-19-2013, 10:08 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

It is sad how a single design fault can so discourage people. Of course the fact that CJF tends to be in denial (at least to customers) that there is an issue does not help.

Just about all the issues I see on '14s comes down to one thing: faulty power conditioning, something that is so basic to aircraft and data center designs to be included without thinking.

Unfortunately, I suspect the design engineers (CJF has some great engineeers) may have been overruled, mgmt. did not think it necessary just like many people think they can just drop a supercharger on an engine without changing the maps (quick way to lighten pistons).

Thing is all we see are the results. For some reason the ABS module seems to take the majority of the hits but suspect that is a effect rather than a cause.

Of course without a wiring diagram & just having a '12 which has been uber reliable all I can do is make WAGs but suspect noise on the CAN bus possibly resulting from ground surges which indicates a lack of power conditioning.

A very large alternator coupled with a remote battery location makes some interesting effects possible. A "new and improved" electronics package that may not be as resiliant as before would not help.

As you may know I am working on Windows based Tablets for mobile use. Android is cheaper and iPad more popular (have both) but with Windows I do not have the limitations of the others.

That said TI makes a very useful device familty, the LM2596, and 12v-12v regulators/filters using it are quite inexpensive. Frankly I would rather blow a $3 conditioning device than a $300 tablet if/when a surge occurs. Also would not want to feed the 12v device 15v nominal.

Of course the bean counters would be horrified at the thought of adding a $3 device that could fit in a relay case to protect a $900 module or a $2000 entertainment package.

(LM2596 is designed for a 3A current which is enough for a Clover Trail Tab and a powered hub. Other devices can handle more.)
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  #248  
Old 08-19-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc2002 View Post

Amen. I wouldn't call it poor quality either. Not overall. I would say initial defects seem high. Quality will be determined over the coming decade, and as you say, is another thing entirely. That jury will be out for a while.
This is a very good representation of how I feel. I see a lot of major refreshes with auto manufactures have problems and many of them are "design" not "quality".... the wire gets installed exactly where it was supposed to but in the first few months they see 1 in 100 get pinched so they change the process.

This car has a lot of tech (JGC)... and you know what there has been some design issues with the radio but I feel they are on top of it. They are also at the forefront of this change in thinking.

AMC as I have said to you before I can only hope that you don't continue to have issues with your new car. Subaru is likely a more stable choice than other options we talked about.... and totally only time will tell if the issues get permanently resolved with the JGC but they are a multitude of issues not just Quality of Build.
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  #249  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:21 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by amc2002 View Post
Yeah, our new Forester will be a CVT. I guess I will deal. It just sucks that we have to even consider these other vehicles when we know what our heart really wants. But at some point - a point some of us have reached - you just have to say I think for at least a little while I want something I have a better shot at never having to worry about.
Yeah thats the decision point we are at too. What I'm really worried about is trading the 2011 in on a 2014 and finding it to be worse than the 2011. If we do that and my wife winds up on the side of the road with the truck beeping and honking I'm going to have to come live with you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mceb
Good ole Flame war lol
Its not a flamewar. I've said it before and I'll say it again...I love my Jeep its just I've had a lot of failures. A lot of other people have had a lot of failures too. I and others have to decide do we want to keep driving these Jeeps when we've been through hell with them or get something we like less but can depend on more. We're frustrated we have to make that decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willx
I see the actual repair summaries, sure 174 problems out of 100 Jeeps (JD Power) but in JD Power world a visor replacement is the same as an engine replacements as far as reliability is concerned.
What you have to realize is to the consumer it may as well be the same. A visor here or a head unit there covered under warranty I could excuse...but you saw my list of failures...I've had multiple electrical system failures...several repeated...its inexcusable.

Quote:
Ha, OK got me there, I should have said, Who cares if the radio needs to be replaced once. 17 times is excessive for sure, but my concerns still stand.... We are NOT talking about transmission replacements and engine failures and I think people should be eyes wide open on this. There are numerous vehicles now on the road tipping past the 100k and having oil consumption issues and some really major long term reliability issues. Funny enough, Chrysler isn't having that issue??? interesting that they also have not done Direct Injection in Petrol cars yet either???
All I can say is when its you that has the truck with 17 failures...you'll feel differently.

As to reliability past 100k...I don't know that we have any WK2s past 100k yet, do we? Time will tell. Seeing that I am in this position at 30k miles I'm not optomistic. I'm not worried about 100k, I'm worried about 35k.

Quote:
I mention Mercedes because you did, I can never understand why people in a forum are not sure why I bring something up that they themselves mentioned.... "They have consumers coming from brands like Toyota/Honda, even Lexus, MB".
I brought up MB as an example of dealer experience and customer service, not reliability.

Quote:
As for the Rotors Comment, even the Lexus I had years ago did that. I learned that in the driving environment I have that I need to spend the $100.00 once per year and have the brakes fully cleaned and serviced. In that I have seen a 20-30% better service life on the brakes due to more even, fron/back wear, so it picks up some but not all of the cost.
I've owned 5 Lexus vehicles...all of which were driven in the same area and manner as the Jeep, the only one that required front brakes before 50,000 miles was my 2003 ES300, and that was covered by a TSB under warranty. My mechanic was a Lexus master tech for 16 years...he was shocked at the condition of the brakes on my Jeep. Even now, I can see the corrosion through the wheels on the rotors that were replaced 5,000 miles ago...the calipers...

Quote:
No one is completely wrong here and no one is completely correct. But I completely disagree with labeling Jeep Grand Cherokee from 2011 forward with poor quality. Maybe I just feel stronger about the old fashion quality that meant it lasted down the road and that is more important to me.
I would not say the vehicle is poor quality overall, no. Its a very well built truck. There are areas where quality is at best inconsistent though, for example the quality of electrical components on my Jeep, but others are fine. I'm not the only one with issues. That shows an inconsistency in quality control at some point in the engineering or assembly process. The issues with sunroof drains. The poor paintwork and assembly of some units (misaligned doors, etc).

Obviously I'm happy my Jeep runs, but I am not a consumer that will spend $40k on a vehicle, have repeated component failures requiring multiple trips to the dealer and weeks without the vehicle with no loaner and say "Well, at least it runs so I'm happy". There are too many other vehicles out there that would do more than "at least run". I think most consumers are like me.
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  #250  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

I don't know how guys can call these quality machines.

I have a piece of trim on the quarter panel that sticks out a little. I notice every time (or almost every time) I wash the car.

When I forget to bring the fob with me it won't start. Even when I press the vr button and explain what happened. She doesn't listen.

There is a big hole in the roof. Instead of replacing the panel, the factory stuck two pieces of glass in the hole. What really pissed me off is the deception on Jeep's part. To try to hide the blunder they covered it on the inside with some cloth.

The tires do really suck for on/off road tires.

And it really should raise (or at least not lower) when you switch to sand mode.

Maybe I should hire a big law firm, but then I won't be able to discuss this any more.
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  #251  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:34 AM
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I don't know how guys can call these quality machines.

I have a piece of trim on the quarter panel that sticks out a little. I notice every time (or almost every time) I wash the car.

When I forget to bring the fob with me it won't start. Even when I press the vr button and explain what happened. She doesn't listen.

There is a big hole in the roof. Instead of replacing the panel, the factory stuck two pieces of glass in the hole. What really pissed me off is the deception on Jeep's part. To try to hide the blunder they covered it on the inside with some cloth.

The tires do really suck for on/off road tires.

And it really should raise (or at least not lower) when you switch to sand mode.

Maybe I should hire a big law firm, but then I won't be able to discuss this any more.
I am glad we did not loose your perspective to the war of attrition!

Always refreshing.
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  #252  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:36 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Yeah thats the decision point we are at too. What I'm really worried about is trading the 2011 in on a 2014 and finding it to be worse than the 2011. If we do that and my wife winds up on the side of the road with the truck beeping and honking I'm going to have to come live with you!
Haha... I'll get the pull-out ready.

Seriously though, if you have had that quantity of issues with your 2011, I would probably just go for the 2014 thinking that the chances are it will probably be significantly better than your 2011. Really.

The chances of your getting a real lemon are pretty remote, and it sounds like your 2011 is, while not a lemon in severity of issues, probably a lemon in quantity of issues. Your 2014 experience is very likely to be better. Probably not perfect, as we have discussed here, but likely better.

Still, there is no way I'd be buying. I'd be leasing. No question. Or do the extended warranty. It's a certainty that when I do get another Jeep, it will ALWAYS BE UNDER WARRANTY.

My 2002 is so simple it's genius. I have no problem doing work myself, and when I don't do it, it's easy and cheap to get it done by someone else.

I think that era of Jeep is pretty much over. Look at the new Cherokee. It's ALL technology. GC too.

I'm going to start a new acronym here when it comes to Jeep (and probably most new vehicles): NBOW - Never Be Out of Warranty.
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