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  #421  
Old 10-24-2013, 03:39 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Again, less for less money isn't value. You need to be getting more for less. We're getting that in the vehicle, the JGC is more for less...but the service is not.
I'd tend to say it's inconsistent as far as service right now. Not necessarily across the board bad or poor service.

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And luxury is about feel. How things make you feel is very important when you're dealing with a luxury consumer at a luxury price point. Why do you think someone stays in a Ritz Carleton thats in the same location as a Holiday Inn for 3 times as much money? Both have a bed.
I'd agree with you about luxury being about feel, so to speak. But I'd also argue that people spend a great deal of money for some "feel" that is of little value overall. But that's another topic.

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The better model is not to try and reinvent the wheel. These consumers have certain expectations, and if they really want to be a viable alternative to something like a Range Rover, they need to meet those expectations...not try and re-educate the consumer to a new set of expectations.
I'd agree with you here. However, as I said, I think it is being worked on and right now I'd call things "inconsistent"...which is what I'd expect during a transition period.

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You're just wrong, as wrong as the people I just had this discussion with on the Lexus forum about the GC being a crossover. I've been a Lexus owner and enthusiast (run Lexus forums, etc) for 15 years and fully understand the similarities and differences. There is nothing visibly shared between a US 4Runner and a GX. The GX is a rebadged Land Cruiser Prado and is built on the same platform as the 4Runner, but thats all. The FJ Cruiser is also built on that platform as is the Tacoma.
I'm not saying the 4Runner is simply "rebadged." What I am saying is that it is extremely common to the GX. The LC Prado and GX are basically the same vehicle in entirety. The 4Runner and GX share the same chassis and engine/transmission/drivetrain (body on frame). In fact, the body of the GX and the 4Runner has commonality too in terms of components (floorpan subassemblies, etc). Yes, the body of the GX is "different", but it's a sheetmetal component placed upon that very same chassis as the 4Runner. In fact, because of the commonality of the GX and the LC Prado, the numbers are higher there and therefore that body component is actually cheaper to manufacture than the lower-number 4Runner body. Internal to that body you have some different trim of course, but behind the scenes a greater majority of the components are the exact same across all three of these. As I said, the build cost difference is about 1%.

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Anyways, a fully loaded 4Runner Limited with the third row MSRP's for $46,020. The GX starts at $49,085 (without nav). Nav is $1,795...so that brings it to $50,880. The difference is $4,000...not $20,000.
The pricing I'm using came from the 2003-2009 vintage, but the "fully loaded" 4Runner Limited with V8, rear air suspension, X-REAS, third row, NAV, JBL audio, sunroof, and so forth was around $41,900. The same type of configuration (KDSS instead of X-REAS, and so forth) in a GX priced out around $51,000. So, you're right...not $20K difference. But not $4K either. Regardless of this exact amount or difference, there is nowhere near $10K or even $4K worth of build cost difference. You're looking at the price being paid for branding, as well as that "warm fuzzy" feeling. Service-wise, you're paying for that separately in additional labor rate increases.

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You'd be surprised. How much profit is in a JGC? The DC Group buy is selling a $48,800 Overland for about $42,500. My GS was $59,900 and I paid $54k which was a bottom deal with a factory to dealer incentive. So...theres actually more profit in a Grand Cherokee.
Oh no sir. I'm sorry, but you're looking at the from a consumer standpoint. There are plenty of "incentives" built into prices that you do not see. It's also not uncommon for a manufacturer to sell product under cost on launch to get things moving.

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The people that surround me specifically are luxury buyers...the people who Jeep is trying to convert to the brand from luxury brands. Sense of entitlement? You're damn right. If I'm spending $35,000-$50,000 on a vehicle, I want good service. I didn't think it would be a big deal until my Jeep started spending a lot of time in the shop and I realized how important that service can be.
I hope you don't think I'm arguing against good service. I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that service along Chrysler's line has been inconsistent. However...given the experiences I'm having I wonder how much of this is being affected by the approach being taken by individuals.
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  #422  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:07 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
I'd agree with you about luxury being about feel, so to speak. But I'd also argue that people spend a great deal of money for some "feel" that is of little value overall. But that's another topic.
Value is in the eye of the beholder. It may not be of value to you, but it is of value to the consumer that Jeep is trying to target.

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I'd agree with you here. However, as I said, I think it is being worked on and right now I'd call things "inconsistent"...which is what I'd expect during a transition period.
Its been 3 years...no new service plans, no mention of any new service plans.

Quote:
The pricing I'm using came from the 2003-2009 vintage, but the "fully loaded" 4Runner Limited with V8, rear air suspension, X-REAS, third row, NAV, JBL audio, sunroof, and so forth was around $41,900. The same type of configuration (KDSS instead of X-REAS, and so forth) in a GX priced out around $51,000. So, you're right...not $20K difference.
So your mention of $20,000 was just for effect? Anyways...thats been 11-5 years ago...that really has no bearing on what the value proposition is today.

Quote:
But not $4K either. Regardless of this exact amount or difference, there is nowhere near $10K or even $4K worth of build cost difference. You're looking at the price being paid for branding, as well as that "warm fuzzy" feeling.
That difference doesn't go to the dealer is my point. You are getting a lot for that $4k, you're getting a better warranty, better materials inside and out, better build quality, better displays and stereo, a more robust 4WD system, better seating and trim, better styling, more prestige, better dealer service, better resale. Thats not an insignificant list of things for $4k.

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Oh no sir. I'm sorry, but you're looking at the from a consumer standpoint. There are plenty of "incentives" built into prices that you do not see. It's also not uncommon for a manufacturer to sell product under cost on launch to get things moving.
Dealer pricing is pretty simple. You have invoice cost, holdback, factory to dealer incentives, and then any profit made off of financing or extras you purchase. The manufacturer may sell it under cost...but the dealer is not loosing money on it.

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However...given the experiences I'm having I wonder how much of this is being affected by the approach being taken by individuals.
Thats always the first thing people say..."It must be you". I can tell you...I'm about the most laid back person there is, and nobody wants his Jeep experience to be great more than me. I'm the one in my family that wanted this vehicle, and I'm the one who hears it when somethings not right.

It certainly isn't "just me"...and I'm certainly not alone just from the feedback on this thread and on this site.
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  #423  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:33 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
Value is in the eye of the beholder. It may not be of value to you, but it is of value to the consumer that Jeep is trying to target.
That's a big assumption. You're right...value is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not sure Jeep is aiming at the type of "luxury" market you are specifically referencing. That would...in all honesty...be foolhardy as the "Jeep" branding will not easily give up it's "rugged" image. You can modify it to some degree...add some luxury to the entire concept, but Jeep as a branding would not tend to do well if thrust amongst the luxury brands directly. There's too much history...and a marketer that wanted to immediately push in that direction would be insane.

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Its been 3 years...no new service plans, no mention of any new service plans.
I'm not sure what you mean by "service plans" here...


Quote:
So your mention of $20,000 was just for effect? Anyways...thats been 11-5 years ago...that really has no bearing on what the value proposition is today.
No...not just for effect. There are luxury vs. standard branding examples that have markups near that point. My memory about the 4Runner vs GX470 was a little off on that one--but it wasn't intended as an "effect" so I apologize if it came across that way.

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That difference doesn't go to the dealer is my point. You are getting a lot for that $4k, you're getting a better warranty, better materials inside and out, better build quality, better displays and stereo, a more robust 4WD system, better seating and trim, better styling, more prestige, better dealer service, better resale. Thats not an insignificant list of things for $4k.
But...in subtle ways it does get back down to the dealer...as below...

Quote:
Dealer pricing is pretty simple. You have invoice cost, holdback, factory to dealer incentives, and then any profit made off of financing or extras you purchase. The manufacturer may sell it under cost...but the dealer is not loosing money on it.
Ah...but you left out one very important thing. Dealer Volume Incentives. Different brands call them different things, but they are...interesting. "Volume" can mean anything...and as long as it isn't an incentive applied to a specific unit or vehicle, this skirts under the radar of lawsuits aimed at up-front or true pricing. Volume can mean 1 or 1000 units, as long as it is applied across the board, and manufacturers use this as a method of funneling more incentive to the dealers. Why do you think some dealers consistently sell new vehicles for WELL under invoice...when by conventional thinking they would not be able to stay in business long or would simply be supported by their used car side or service departments? It's because of this little tidbit that they can do this. This is also why they love "group buying" opportunities and the like. And, as I said, a particular manufacturer will use this with even small "volume" numbers to incentivize.

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Thats always the first thing people say..."It must be you". I can tell you...I'm about the most laid back person there is, and nobody wants his Jeep experience to be great more than me. I'm the one in my family that wanted this vehicle, and I'm the one who hears it when somethings not right.

It certainly isn't "just me"...and I'm certainly not alone just from the feedback on this thread and on this site.
Hold on...I think you're taking this personally when it's not intended to be (I just found this to be an interesting conversation thread and your replies to be interesting to discuss back and forth). I don't know you...you could be the nicest person on earth and you are indeed getting screwed left and right by a bad dealership or you happened to hit all the wrong people with Chrysler. Of course that happens. However...I've tended to see LOTS of people immediately respond with a chip on their shoulder and shut everyone down around them...including those that would help them.

For example...My Overland was delivered a bit over a week ago. Tuesday, I decided to take it in because I felt there was a bit of a noticeable drone coming in just off idle that I felt was probably a bit abnormal. Well, I brought it in, was given a rental (free of charge) and went on my way.

I went by today (usually they call me towards the end of the day but I was in the area) and was told by my service advisor that they heard/felt what I was talking about and it was completely unacceptable. It was BAD to them and the technicians and they had called Chrysler, opened a STAR case, and were going to work on this until it was completely resolved. No ifs, ands or buts. No "it's normal" to get me on my way. I was pleasantly surprised at how it was being handled.

I received a proactive call from Chrysler shortly after this...I didn't have to contact anyone (through normal channels or the back channels I know).

Now, I'm not happy that a vehicle with 220 miles on it could have a very serious issue (or...it might be a completely minor exhaust issue). But...I'm happy that it's being treated in a serious manner, and there hasn't been any of the game playing I hear about on here often.

So, there ARE good dealerships out there and I believe there HAVE been some changes in this respect. But...I certainly also know that people can have very BAD experiences as well.
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  #424  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:54 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
That's a big assumption. You're right...value is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not sure Jeep is aiming at the type of "luxury" market you are specifically referencing. \
I'm not saying they are, but they have to offer SOME sort of premium service to appeal to buyers who come to the brand from luxury marques. Some sort of loaner program, at least for warranty work, pick up-dropoff program...something. I mean when I put my Toyota in for warranty work I was given a loaner. It was a Yaris, but it was something to drive.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "service plans" here...
I mean they have no plan for how they're going to improve dealerships or improve the customer's experience when servicing the vehicle.

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No...not just for effect. There are luxury vs. standard branding examples that have markups near that point.
Such as what?

Quote:
Hold on...I think you're taking this personally when it's not intended to be (I just found this to be an interesting conversation thread and your replies to be interesting to discuss back and forth). I don't know you...you could be the nicest person on earth and you are indeed getting screwed left and right by a bad dealership or you happened to hit all the wrong people with Chrysler. Of course that happens. However...I've tended to see LOTS of people immediately respond with a chip on their shoulder and shut everyone down around them...including those that would help them.
I honestly do not take it personally at all...but if you had the problems you'd understand the chip on the shoulder.

Quote:
For example...My Overland was delivered a bit over a week ago. Tuesday, I decided to take it in because I felt there was a bit of a noticeable drone coming in just off idle that I felt was probably a bit abnormal. Well, I brought it in, was given a rental (free of charge) and went on my way.
To Chrysler's credit, all of my issues have been addressed without complaint. Its taken days to weeks to get parts at times and has required multiple trips to the dealer (I need to schedule the second half of the latest list of repairs). My issue is the frequency with which I am having to do this, and the lack of any sort of loaner or rental available. Its an enormous waste of time.

I was posting the same thing you've posted when mine had 500 miles on it. I remember a similar thread where I came to their defense. Hopefully it won't happen to you, but to those of us that have had a hard time or multiple failures (I'm at over 20 warranty repairs in two years)...that goodwill evaporates fast.

I would be WAY less frustrated if they could get ahold of parts in a timely manner, and if they would give me a loaner car to drive while its in the shop.
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  #425  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:42 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by SW03ES View Post
I'm not saying they are, but they have to offer SOME sort of premium service to appeal to buyers who come to the brand from luxury marques. Some sort of loaner program, at least for warranty work, pick up-dropoff program...something. I mean when I put my Toyota in for warranty work I was given a loaner. It was a Yaris, but it was something to drive.
And there are a lot of dealerships that DO have a loaner program. Yours apparently isn't one of them which is unfortunate. Mine does offer this.

I've also been to Toyota dealerships that do not have loaner programs -- just rentals at the customer's expense. It's a bit of a hit-or-miss across the "standard" brands, not just Chrysler.

Here's an interesting thing of note. Chrysler offers first day rental coverage as part of their service contracts. Interestingly, buying one of those actually covers some of the price differential between their products and "luxury" brands. Perhaps viewing that as an "optional" addition to your vehicle purchase whereas with traditional "luxury" brands you're buying that coverage (actually, somewhat less) in a mandatory fashion. Just a thought.


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I mean they have no plan for how they're going to improve dealerships or improve the customer's experience when servicing the vehicle.
Well, I'm not sure you can speak as to whether or not they have a plan in that respect. Again, I've noticed it's been hit or miss. The same dealership I use now didn't have the level of service I see now back in 2003 when I owned Jeeps before. I worked very closely with Chrysler back then--and it is different now (although I no longer have the same exact insight now that I had back then).

Quote:
To Chrysler's credit, all of my issues have been addressed without complaint. Its taken days to weeks to get parts at times and has required multiple trips to the dealer (I need to schedule the second half of the latest list of repairs). My issue is the frequency with which I am having to do this, and the lack of any sort of loaner or rental available. Its an enormous waste of time.
If you don't mind my asking, what parts are taking so long to get? I've noticed a few posts referencing this and that causes me a little bit of concern for a number of reasons. Normally parts are stacked 100s deep in the supplier chain but there have been several references to what I would consider "common" parts being next to impossible to obtain.

Quote:
I was posting the same thing you've posted when mine had 500 miles on it. I remember a similar thread where I came to their defense. Hopefully it won't happen to you, but to those of us that have had a hard time or multiple failures (I'm at over 20 warranty repairs in two years)...that goodwill evaporates fast.
I'm not "defending" so to speak, and this isn't my first rodeo with Chrysler by any means. I recognize their faults. But, I've had a lot of vehicles from a lot of different manufacturers and I've noticed problems with all of them. Chrysler's issues don't seem to be all that different than any of the others...the others just veil them a little differently. Plus, I have seen some very positive differences...at least with the dealers and such that I'm dealing with.

I'm curious as to what these 20 repairs are in 2 years though. Not to criticize, but just out of curiosity as to what failures have occurred. Have they been mostly electrical in nature and related?
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  #426  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:19 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
And there are a lot of dealerships that DO have a loaner program. Yours apparently isn't one of them which is unfortunate. Mine does offer this.

I've also been to Toyota dealerships that do not have loaner programs -- just rentals at the customer's expense. It's a bit of a hit-or-miss across the "standard" brands, not just Chrysler.
None of the Jeep dealers around here do. Chrysler has no program, Toyota does for warranty work over a day.

Quote:
Here's an interesting thing of note. Chrysler offers first day rental coverage as part of their service contracts. Interestingly, buying one of those actually covers some of the price differential between their products and "luxury" brands.
I shouldn't have to buy a service contract to get quality service, and certainly someone comparing the Jeep to a luxury marque isn't going to take that as a viable solution.

Quote:
If you don't mind my asking, what parts are taking so long to get? I've noticed a few posts referencing this and that causes me a little bit of concern for a number of reasons. Normally parts are stacked 100s deep in the supplier chain but there have been several references to what I would consider "common" parts being next to impossible to obtain.
Mines needed some weird parts. Steering wheel control pods, door handles, other switches, HVAC control panel, sunroof drains, the latest parts are the cup holder and glovebox door.

Quote:
I'm curious as to what these 20 repairs are in 2 years though. Not to criticize, but just out of curiosity as to what failures have occurred. Have they been mostly electrical in nature and related?
I've posted a list a couple times. Mostly electrical, steering rack, brakes at an early mileage with heavy corrosion, leaks, etc.

I've easily had more problems with this car than any car I've ever owned.
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  #427  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:24 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

Marosenb was prophetic when he titled this thread.


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  #428  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:31 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

Yes he was lol
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  #429  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:26 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Poor dealer experiences certainly aren't limited to the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep side of things. They're often universal among "non-luxury" brands...and even some luxury brands.

From a service perspective, part of the issue is simply how the warranty system works. The flat time allotted for the labor is...well...ridiculous in some cases and much lower than for the same issue under customer-pay. The techs simply don't want to do the warranty work--customer pay is much more lucrative. Have a complex issue?...whew. Have a driveline vibration of some sort or a non-obvious electrical issue? What tech wants to approach those things? He or she will spend multiple hours on it...tedious hours...and in the end get paid 1 hour for a driveshaft R&R or 0.5 for a module pull (even if the actual labor took 3 times as long, nevermind the diag time...he MIGHT get an hour or less for that). Module reprogram (flash) for a TSB?...0.2 hours. Twelve (12) minutes paid. Often times it takes longer than that to set up to DO the flash. For the "setup", the tech isn't paid. In any case, said tech is watching the guys next to him pulling down many more customer pay hours easily for quick alternator replacements, plug changes, etc. Basically, there's a disincentive for the warranty side, and no incentive to do it. In fact, in many shops being stuck with all warranty work is considered punishment for screwing something up or irritating someone like the lead tech or shop foreman.

Your service advisor also hates warranty work because his cut is much smaller as well. Every second spent with your warranty claim is money lost to him or her.

The surveys used are also ridiculous--customers angry at the vehicle make note of that in the survey. As a result, even if the dealership did EVERYTHING right, they still get slammed by Chrysler in this respect because they survey numbers are awful. So...there's no real incentive to do well there either. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It doesn't help when you add to this that dealership parts departments (often run SEPARATELY from service) tend to be extremely greedy -- many using matrix pricing to charge varying percentages ABOVE MSRP on parts. I've watched service advisors and service managers almost get into knock-downs with parts managers and parts counter people who wouldn't budge on parts prices, even for stellar repeat customers. Sadly, the business model works to some degree as they're still making money.

LOTS needs to change in the dealership world to really fix that side of things for the customer experience.
This, so much this. I've only been to (two separate) dealerships twice for service and it's already clear that this is a major problem that needs to be fixed.

Even issues that are obviously issues and not right for any car let alone a brand new one as nice as a JGC that's Made in the USA, are downplayed, "normal", "that's just how they make them", etc. The attitude is that you're a PITA to the dealer for having the nerve to bring it in for warranty service. And, in truth, for the reasons you mentioned, we probably are.

I understand that Chrysler needs to make sure the dealerships (and customers) don't take advantage of them, but I think there needs to be a much healthier balance.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:46 PM
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Re: And so it continues...

There is a luxury JGC, it's the new Maserati SUV. http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ng-future-cars
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:52 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgc4ever View Post
There is a luxury JGC, it's the new Maserati SUV. 2014 Maserati Kubang Future Cars Car and Driver
It's interesting that Chrysler CEO Sergio changed his mind about building the Maserati SUV at JNAP and moved it to Italy. Probably due to QC issues on the WK2 from JNAP.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:34 AM
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Re: And so it continues...

[QUOTE=BobsWK2;916850] It's interesting that Chrysler CEO Sergio changed his mind about building the Maserati SUV at JNAP and moved it to Italy. Probably due to QC issues on the WK2 from JNAP. [/QUOTE]



Must be. Maserati owners wouldn't stand for having to press a button 4 times to open a liftgate.

Or it could be that they expect JNAP to be running at full capacity turning out the JGC, Durango, and eventually the Wagoneer.


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