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  #49  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:58 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

Found some interesting info on the WIN module. "WIN" stands for "wireless ignition node" and it's not exclusive to vehicles with push button ignitions. It turns out that there are a lot of Chrysler vehicles that use a WIN module. There was even a recall involving the WIN module on several different vehicles:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...on-defect.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...lDiuyQ&cad=rja


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  #50  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:17 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

Go to your 1990 Jeep, take the fuse out of the computer, see what works.
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  #51  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:23 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

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Originally Posted by rybocf View Post

And as an aside, MrPosiTraction, I *REALLY* hope your job is not one that has to do with releasing products that have any safety risks to the public

-Ryan
I work in industry and deal with releasing large equipment every day. You can't protect people from themselves (going unprepaired into the wilderness is just that). You can build the most safe machine there is, add all the gaurds and safety in the world....and two things will happen.

1) No one will want to operate it because they can't (this is real work, not sitting behind a computer pushing buttons, plus, if they could do that, we could automate it and no one ever has to get hurt ) (stricly machine related, not Jeep related, until it comes to do maintenance)

2) The price and complexity will be so high that no one will be buy in.

People piss and moan all the time about traction control coming on and not allowing them to get out. Poeple remove speed limiters all the time because they feel they know better.

My point is purely that a "WIN" module is not reason to go off in left field about 3 people freezing to death. That train of thought was rediculous!
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  #52  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:27 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

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Originally Posted by MSCA View Post
But I'm not so sure it isn't unique to Chrysler. Just because other cars have passive pushbutton ignitions doesn't necessarily mean that they use a WIN module.
No, they call it something else I am sure, but it is a wireless module!

A corrupted ECM (engine contorl module) will not allow your vehicle to work as well. It can become currupted many ways!

Again, I am not playind down the facts of the problem, it needs to be addressed. Just the mindset the sky is falling is humorous.
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  #53  
Old 01-21-2011, 03:40 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

Don't try to pull safety into this.

I fish offshore. Losing power offshore is something you absolutely must be prepared for. People get twins, trips, quad engines, but still a bad tank of fuel, or any of thousands of different things can leave you stranded without power. These things reduce the probability of becoming stranded, but no one is immune.

Redundancy is the key. We carry no fewer than two 406mhz satellite beacons. We have two fixed mount VHF radios. We have cell phones. And numerous other safety items to keep us alive until rescued.

You're an idiot to venture into a remote area depending on the reliability of any single vehicle to save your life.
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  #54  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:37 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

Wait a minute, I think I'm not maing my point clearly.

All I'm trying to say is that we (as a whole) should be pushing to make our vehicles and products safer and more reliable with each iteration. Going backwards on critical components makes me nervous...now we rely on wireless technology (additional computer systems) just to start the vehicle because we are too lazy to put a key in the ignition. Is it worth it?

That's why I mentioned 3 people freezing to death. Yes, it's "over the top", but I bet you if it happened, the mainstream media would get a hold of it and we'd be hearing all about it. We wouldn't hear about it if the battery died, but if the car wouldn't start for no other reason than some "new fangled, improperly tested" component I can imagine the noise it would make. It doesn't make it justified.

My final point/question on this. Is the added convenience and techno-coolness factor worth some of the risk? Most of you have said yes by purchasing your vehicles (I have too). But more points of failure do present more times when you wife or kids can be stranded somewhere. I start to question the risk versus the reward....or at least make us feel like these systems are rock solid.

-Ryan
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  #55  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:46 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

Quote:
Originally Posted by rybocf View Post
Wait a minute, I think I'm not maing my point clearly.

All I'm trying to say is that we (as a whole) should be pushing to make our vehicles and products safer and more reliable with each iteration. Going backwards on critical components makes me nervous...now we rely on wireless technology (additional computer systems) just to start the vehicle because we are too lazy to put a key in the ignition. Is it worth it?

That's why I mentioned 3 people freezing to death. Yes, it's "over the top", but I bet you if it happened, the mainstream media would get a hold of it and we'd be hearing all about it. We wouldn't hear about it if the battery died, but if the car wouldn't start for no other reason than some "new fangled, improperly tested" component I can imagine the noise it would make. It doesn't make it justified.

My final point/question on this. Is the added convenience and techno-coolness factor worth some of the risk? Most of you have said yes by purchasing your vehicles (I have too). But more points of failure do present more times when you wife or kids can be stranded somewhere. I start to question the risk versus the reward....or at least make us feel like these systems are rock solid.

-Ryan
One point to remember, the wireless technology that's at question here has been part of our vehicles ever since smart keys were introduced. Some of the issue that Chrysler as well as many of the other builders have had with this technology have prevented vehicles from starting regardless whether you turned a key in the ignition or pressed a button.

Simply having a key to turn doesn't mean the problem wouldn't crop up and in fact, if you read through this, there is a "key" type override under the button. This "smart key" technology with a FOB turning an ignition switch instead of the traditional metal key has been in use globally for almost a decade.

This isn't a new or untested technology but more likely a quality control issue that Chrysler needs to sort out.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:16 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

Before I head into the wilderness, I can check my hoses and clamps. I can load test my battery and make sure it is good. I can check the condition of my tires and my spare. How do I check my WIN module?
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  #57  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:36 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

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Before I head into the wilderness, I can check my hoses and clamps. I can load test my battery and make sure it is good. I can check the condition of my tires and my spare. How do I check my WIN module?
Thank you! And until this thread came up, we didn't even know what a WIN module was, much less how to check it. Someone gets my point!!!
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:48 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

I thought since day one the whole keyless start system was just an over complication and potential source of trouble.... then I realized its really not any different then my 7 year old Mazda that needs to detect the chip in my traditional key in order to let the ignition fire

The reality is keyless is actually less complicated and eliminates problems with keys and the ignition lock
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  #59  
Old 01-21-2011, 09:12 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

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Originally Posted by CrazyJ View Post
Don't try to pull safety into this.


You're an idiot to venture into a remote area depending on the reliability of any single vehicle to save your life.

Safety is a concern, even if you're not venturing off into a remote area.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:30 PM
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Re: !$^@&W%&#*#@^!@^@&% jeep !@^$@^

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Originally Posted by rdalcanto View Post
Before I head into the wilderness, I can check my hoses and clamps. I can load test my battery and make sure it is good. I can check the condition of my tires and my spare. How do I check my WIN module?
You beat me to it. I was going to say something very similar.

Someone mentioned that batteries can fail unexpectedly. That's possible, but VERY unlikely. Car batteries are pretty darn reliable and very rarely fail, at least until they get a few years of age on them. Someone can make the argument that they can still fail, but you have to consider the rate of failure. It's a basic risk assessment. I just replaced my original battery on my vehicle because it is just about seven years old. The battery still tested fine and never failed to start the vehicle, but I still replaced it because of it's age. Based on past history, I felt that seven years of use with the same battery was already pushing it....and I'd rather not get stuck in the winter with a dead battery, so I replaced it. I'm pretty confident that my new battery will operate trouble-free for at least the next 3 or 4 years without any issue whatsoever.

Point is this-- most things that fail on a motor vehicle are things that have a predicted life and don't last forever. Batteries are a perfect example. So are radiator hoses, serpentine belts, spark plugs, etc... If you ever find yourself in a situation where you are relying on your vehicle to keep you safe, then you'd be wise to ensure that those kinds of things are in good working order. If they are old, replace them. Once you do that, you just increased your odds of not breaking down. The way I see it, this is money well spent, but I tend to keep my vehicles in absolutely tip-top shape, regardless of cost.

Unfortunately, when it comes to something like an electronic module, there's nothing you can do. They tend to either work or fail completely. There's no way to test them and there's no way to predict when they will fail. So in that sense, you're out of luck when they do fail. But here's the thing--powertrain control modules and electronic control modules have been around a long time now, and they are VERY reliable. I'm not saying they can't fail...because they obviously can. But failure is extremely rare (I'd guess less than 0.01%) over the average life of a vehicle. And depending upon HOW they fail, the car might still be driveable in a "limp-home" mode. That's why I wanted to learn more about this WIN module and why a failure will completely render the vehicle inoperable. I'm surprised they couldn't find a way to build a safeguard of some sort into it so vehicle owners don't get stranded.
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