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Experience with dealers and TSB's

9K views 48 replies 16 participants last post by  fnkychkn 
#1 ·
I read this site a lot and like it. I seldom post but decided to share some of my experiences for your consideration.
Having problems with a new car can be really frustrating---I have been there many time over my long life. Many times that frustration causes us to behave in strange ways, often disrespectful, threating, and combative. I assure you that if we let our frustration get the best of us and start getting ugly, threating lawyers, lemon law, etc. right off the bat it will likely result in less cooperation not more. However, in my experience, a person that is calm, courteous, patient, and respectful with a dealer will often get service with equal respect and maybe even see the dealer go the extra mile. If satisfaction can not be achieved through respectful dialogue and enough time then there are certainly other remedies to pursue down the road--but even that can be done in a respectful way.

As far as TSB's are concerned--- they are bulletins containing technical information to assist a dealer in diagnosing a problem raised by a customer. TSB's are supposed to be proprietary information. A TSB is not an ENTITLEMENT of action-- it is a tool to assist a dealer in providing a good diagnosis and appropriate repair-- the decision to act on a TSB is the dealers to make.

In fact if I were in the auto business and a customer came in waiving a handful of TSB's demanding that I install them whether I needed them or not I think I would be less interested in going the extra mile with that customer. The way it should work is for a customer to experience a problem with their car and discuss it with the dealer, the dealer tries to diagnose the problem with the aid of their scan tools, other tools, their experience, conferring with the manufacture, TSB's, and whatever else they deem helpful.
If the problem is confirmed then they perform the appropriate action. If no problem is found they probably will probably not tie up technicians and do work at a reduced warranty rate for no reason. This is not a game--it is a very appropriate business process that any manufacture of durable goods would follow in any industry.

Plus if we try to get a dealer to make our vehicle do something it was never designed to do I don't think they will do it. We can request that the manufacture consider make the change we would like or there are dozens of small shops that specialize in doing unique software or hardware changes not engineered or approved by the manufacturer. We can certainly pay them to do it at our own risk.

A manufacturer recall, on the other hand, is something that all owners with vehicles described in the notice are fully ENTITLED to--no questions asked!!

Plus don't forget, those of us with a 2014 wkII,-- we are in the early years of a lot of newer technology and it may take a while for the manufacture to get it all worked out. So far I have found Jeep and my dealer to be very responsive and committed to work through all of the issues. I am pleased with the attention Jeep is giving to problems and personally feel that most of the issues are behind us. It seems that later build dates are doing quit well.

Currently I have a Ram 3500, Jeep Liberty diesel and fortunately my 2014 Summit (July build date) which I have had very few issues with.

I have too many years of experience (old) with many automobiles and dealers, I have experienced countless problems and frustrations with every manufacture I have owned--American, European, and Asian. I just wanted to share my views resulting from this experience and hope it helps someone.:)
 
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#3 ·
I read this site a lot and like it. I seldom post but decided to share some of my experiences for your consideration.
Having problems with a new car can be really frustrating---I have been there many time over my long life. Many times that frustration causes us to behave in strange ways, often disrespectful, threating, and combative. I assure you that if we let our frustration get the best of us and start getting ugly, threating lawyers, lemon law, etc. right off the bat it will likely result in less cooperation not more. However, in my experience, a person that is calm, courteous, patient, and respectful with a dealer will often get service with equal respect and maybe even see the dealer go the extra mile. If satisfaction can not be achieved through respectful dialogue and enough time then there are certainly other remedies to pursue down the road--but even that can be done in a respectful way.

As far as TSB's are concerned--- they are bulletins containing technical information to assist a dealer in diagnosing a problem raised by a customer. TSB's are supposed to be proprietary information. A TSB is not an ENTITLEMENT of action-- it is a tool to assist a dealer in providing a good diagnosis and appropriate repair-- the decision to act on a TSB is the dealers to make.

In fact if I were in the auto business and a customer came in waiving a handful of TSB's demanding that I install them whether I needed them or not I think I would be less interested in going the extra mile with that customer. The way it should work is for a customer to experience a problem with their car and discuss it with the dealer, the dealer tries to diagnose the problem with the aid of their scan tools, other tools, their experience, conferring with the manufacture, TSB's, and whatever else they deem helpful.
If the problem is confirmed then they perform the appropriate action. If no problem is found they probably will probably not tie up technicians and do work at a reduced warranty rate for no reason. This is not a game--it is a very appropriate business process that any manufacture of durable goods would follow in any industry.

Plus if we try to get a dealer to make our vehicle do something it was never designed to do I don't think they will do it. We can request that the manufacture consider make the change we would like or there are dozens of small shops that specialize in doing unique software or hardware changes not engineered or approved by the manufacturer. We can certainly pay them to do it at our own risk.

A manufacturer recall, on the other hand, is something that all owners with vehicles described in the notice are fully ENTITLED to--no questions asked!!

Plus don't forget, those of us with a 2014 wkII,-- we are in the early years of a lot of newer technology and it may take a while for the manufacture to get it all worked out. So far I have found Jeep and my dealer to be very responsive and committed to work through all of the issues. I am pleased with the attention Jeep is giving to problems and personally feel that most of the issues are behind us. It seems that later build dates are doing quit well.

Currently I have a Ram 3500, Jeep Liberty diesel and fortunately my 2014 Summit (July build date) which I have had very few issues with.

I have too many years of experience (old) with many automobiles and dealers, I have experienced countless problems and frustrations with every manufacture I have owned--American, European, and Asian. I just wanted to share my views resulting from this experience and hope it helps someone.:)
Concerning TSBs I agree with you that people should not go to dealers with a stack of TSBs telling the dealer to do them, that is not how it is supposed to work and dealers do not like it. However the process of diagnoses you describe assumes a perfect world and most know that going to the dealer is far from a perfect world. Dealers often need to be helped in the right direction towards a TSB when you know for sure that a TSB is your problem.

I stated this experience on another thread but will restate here. My Jeep was in for the bad XM reception problem fix recently and this time I just told them about the problem without mentioning the TSB for it as I could tell I have agitated them with TSB talk in the past. So 2 days pass that they have the jeep and they call and say your radio has no errors in it and is functioning fine and we want to keep it another day so we can reload the radio software but we have no usb sick but will buy one tomorrow. I stated I don't think it is a radio problem and then emailed them the TSB and said this TSB describes the exact problem I am having with XM reception the problem sounds like an antenna problem. Light bulbs go off and they say they will order parts, wrong parts were ordered and are then reordered. 5 days (glad for the maxcare rental) later jeep is back XM reception fixed. If I had not stepped in I have no doubt my jeep would have come back with the same problem it went in with. Not the first time I have encountered this type scenario being a first time jeep owner.

I guess the point is dealers are not always stellar at trouble shooting nor do they have the time to examine specific issues as closely as an interested knowledgeable owner might. So I guess what I am saying is that we often need to find a balance between helping them in the right direction vs telling them what to do.

I do agree with the majority of your post though, well said.
 
#4 · (Edited)
What a bunch of crap...I bet you work for Chrysler. Either that or you're the biggest leg-humper fan boy on this site.

:rolleyes:

I have every right to demand that TSBs aimed at correcting the issues that affect my vehicle be fixed, period. Most the time the TSB explains the problem better than I can...if anything I feel I'm making the dealerships job easier by showing the TSB in order to identify the issue more accurately.

...like the TSB to fix my crappy shifting transmission from day one (4th revision now), or the TSB to fix the climet system from turning off everytime I remote start the vehicle. I also have the right to demand my radio is updated to the latest version so I may reap all the benefits from all the "enhancements".

Not my problem Chrysler doesn't reimburse the dealerships enough for warranty work, reading your post just made me even more pissed off than I am at my vehicle and the lousy service I get from my dealership.

"Edmunds article, "How Can a Technical Service Bulletin Help Me?" states that if there's a TSB for your particular problem, and it's verifiable by the dealer, then the repair is free to cars within the warranty period."
 
#5 ·
What a bunch of crap...I bet you work for Chrysler. Either that or you're the biggest leg-humper fan boy on this site.

:rolleyes:

I have every right to demand that TSBs

Your own attitude has a lot to do with how you get treated. If you talk to the people at the dealership with the same tone you use here, it's no surprise they don't want to help. If you go back and read your posts you very often use words like fight, garbage, crap, demand, etc.

I have brought copies of TSBs to the dealer when I had appointments for other work. I ask them if they think I should get it done. They have always taken care of it on that visit.

I mentioned to the service writer on one visit that I would probably see her next month when the recall notice was issued for the Christmas tree dash. The service manager heard me and asked what I was talking about because they had not been notified yet. They were aware of the problem, just not the recall. We had a discussion about recalls, TSBs, and the problems with the '14s.

If I had said to the service writer, I'll be bringing this piece of crap back next month so that maybe you'll have somebody capable of fixing it, and if you don't you'll be hearing from my lawyer because I know about the lemon law, yada yada yada, I doubt the service manager would have approached me to have a discussion about anything. He might have held the door for me. ;)
 
#8 ·
GCLimited
I didn't mean to anger you-- and I don't work for Chrysler. If you don't use that tone when you talk to dealer I am curious why you would on a forum with a fellow GC owner that is just trying to give some helpful ideas????
I guess I should stop posting--good lesson for new members.
 
#10 ·
That's the upside, and downside, of the anonymity offered on forums. Folks will say things here that they otherwise wouldn't say face to face. Don't let it scare you away. You just have to thicken up your skin a little. Don't forget, you can also blow off a little steam here too. Kinda like family, sometimes the frustration shows through, but don't take it personal. :D
 
#9 ·
I think it's valuable to be educate oneself about your vehicle. For instance the quadralift suspension TSB for the issue where the raising and lowering light continue to flash even after the vehicle has reached the correct ride height. I cannot duplicate it at will, but describing the problem to the dealer will likely return the typical, "We haven't heard of that before" response. Describing the issue and telling them you are aware of a TSB on the issue and that a software update should resolve it, IMO will increase the likeliness of getting it corrected.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I think there is two sides to this.

One problem that I think may be happening is, for example, is some Transmissions I think are broken (e.g. valve bodies and solenoids) and folks are going in with the TSB and coming back out with a better transmission, but still a broken one.

So to that extent the OP is correct. And you are better off just stating your problem and let them diagnose it.

But on the other side, some of these issues are hard to reproduce at will. And a lot of dealers want to experience the problem before working on it. The Vehicles are so complex these days that there can be in an infinite amount of states it can be in that it's impractical to reproduce at will. For example my transmission was behaving poorly when it's below 0F, driving 65 MPH for an 1 hour (wouldn't go past 6th). Well now it's 40 F out and it's impossible to reproduce. I see a TSB that says improved cold temperature behavior. I want that damn TSB firmware applied. But it could have been a bad sensor or valve body too.

So it really comes down to how you ask. State your problem and SUGGEST that there is a TSB that might apply and you'd appreciate if they could look into it.

Don't TELL them what they have to do.
 
#18 ·
I have found that my dealer LIKES that i do the research :) - when I had radio issues with my 2014 RA4, and had a list of every step done. Updated, pulled battery, etc.. they said great thanks for saving us the time and just ordered a new radio

my new LIST will be similar... You just have to go about it the right way

example.. the Trans TSB

"My trans shifts like crap.. i did some research and found this TSB"

so tell them the problem, and the possible solution :)
 
#19 ·
Thanks for the feedback. I am retired and don't have much experience with Internet forums. I guess I need to get thicker skin--- and I agree that a forum is a good place to vent.
With that said I think we can discuss a problem with a dealer or have a debate on a forum and still be respectful with one another. Guess I am too old fashioned-- I was raised to be courteous and respectful when addressing people.
If you look at highly skilled and successful negotiators whether in business or government they master the skill of using courtesy and respect to help them succeed--those that don't seldom win a negotiation.
There is a classic management book titled "Getting to yes" that is excellent in teaching how to effectively communicate to get a positive response. I found it helpful in dealing with my family, business negotiations, and dealing with people in stressful situations.
Courtesy and respect does not lead to whamsy pamsy, fold your tent and go home behavior. Just the opposite it can often disarm the other party and help lead to a positive outcome.
Courtesy and respect served me well in a long and very successful career in management dealing with suppliers, employees, customers, peers, board of directors, etc.. By the way I have never been in the automobile business.
These are just my personal thoughts and hope they help someone in dealing with stressful and frustrating communications.
At the end of the day we will all personally choose how we want to communicate and represent ourselves.
Now lets talk about Jeeps!
 
#20 ·
rnabors, you are welcome to my dealership anytime. customers like you get the best treatment. we go above and beyond for customers that treat us with respect. you have a much better chance of getting goodwill coverage on out of warranty repairs than ethug in post #4.

as for you, ethug, stay away from my dealership. i doubt you will like the service you receive.
 
#21 ·
you have a much better chance of getting goodwill coverage on out of warranty repairs than ethug in post #4.

as for you, ethug, stay away from my dealership. i doubt you will like the service you receive.
If your dealership lies to their customers, gives them crappy loaners, and doesn't perform needed warranty work for legit issues, then you bet I'll stay clear of your dealership.

:rolleyes:

I have been nothing but professional when dealing with dealerships I've purchased vehicles from, never coping an attitude, but dealing with Chrysler/Jeep dealerships so far have been the worst of my experience.

I bet you're not even in Massachusetts. You just posted here for a little "ethuggery" of your own.
 
#24 ·
GC,

Something I don't understand. You spend enough time here to know that updating the radio yourself is very easy and takes about 20 minutes. It seems you are more interested in holding the dealer's feet to the fire than solving at least a couple of the problems.

What's up with that?


---
 
#25 · (Edited)
Not my job, it's Chrysler's...and I'm not about to spend my money to fix their mistakes.

And I wouldn't call it "holding the dealer's feet to the fire" by simply asking the dealership to implement several TSBs. If Chrysler indeed does not reimburse the dealerships enough for warranty work provided, again...this is not my problem.

I'm still surprised that there are as many people on the site like you who seem to take the side of Chrysler/Jeep and the dealerships. You've read about the issues I've been having, and some are not minor (transmission). It's not like I'm complaining of loose interior trim, or paint imperfections.

I have legit complaints, and there are TSBs to address my vehicles issues...so why does it have to be so hard to find a Chrysler/Jeep dealership to implement these? It really shouldn't be...I'm not asking for someone's first born for God sakes!

;)
 
#26 ·
My dealer has no problem taking care of these things, but it would require a bit of a road trip for you.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I envy you.

If I could only find a Chrysler/Jeep dealership in my area that provides good customer service, and simply re flashes the TSBs my vehicle requires (radio, HVAC, and transmission), I'd be a happy camper again.

:thumbsup:

We'll see what happens next Tuesday when I drop off my vehicle at this third dealership.
 
#28 ·
GC,

I'm not debating that you have issues that the dealer needs to take care of. But, the uConnect updates are designed for and provided to the owners to do on their own.

What I am saying is that you are more concerned with who does it, than actually getting it done. That's an attitude problem as much as a software problem.

But, to each their own.


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#29 · (Edited)
What I am saying is that you are more concerned with who does it, than actually getting it done. That's an attitude problem as much as a software problem.

But, to each their own.
I don't see it that way Bill. Is it not the dealerships job to perform warranty work? Hardly an "attitude" problem asking them nicely to do their job IMO.

For the record, I'm hoping the radio reflash will fix some of the issues I've been having with it (freeze-ups, "service phone", static pops with FM stations, etc.), and as it stands today, my free UConnect subscription has expired. No way in hell I'm going to pay money to renew the subscription with all the issues I'm having with my vehicle.

I do admit though I hold out hope that posting about all my dealership issues will shed some light on the subject for others.

;)
 
#32 ·
Fnkychkn thanks for the words in post 20.
Over the years I have had many vehicles from domestic and foreign manufactures. Without a doubt some dealers were better than others. One thing that seems consistent with them all was the fact that there was a definite relationship between how well I treated them and the extra attention they gave me. I have never experienced a dealer that would intentionally refuse to perform warranty work that was diagnosed as necessary or ignore a tsb for work that was necessary. If a dealer did those things a customers should use the appropriate channel for grievances and problem escalation. Dealers and manufacturers could not stay in business if that was their normal business practice.
 
#35 ·
Generally anything that is wrong with a new vehicle under warranty is the responsibility of the dealer and chrysler. They took your money and they know there are problems and will be problems. Most problems they knew about in advance. You can catch more flies with honey, no sense in cutting off your nose to spite your face, but I am not interested in their career or business problems; just get it done; no evasions or excuses.
 
#36 ·
I was flat out told by my regular dealer that the 6-8 TSBs I brought to their attention could not be performed because 1. Their laptop once plugged into my car didn't detect that my car needed them and 2. The dealer wouldn't be paid for the work. The W2k site says my vehicle applies and my build date is such that it applies also. I'm going to give them one more shot at it and have a convo with the regular service person I usually see that was off that day and if there's resistance I'm headed to a new dealer. Perhaps their laptops didn't have the latest update so ill give them the benefit of the doubt but the we won't get paid for the work was B.S.
 
#37 ·
My guess is they were saying they wouldn't get paid if the computer did not recognize your vehicle as needing the update. The TSBs tell you what version the wiTech software needs to be. Ask them to check.


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#38 ·
Yeah I figured their witeck laptops may not have been updated but if I give specific TSB number and they look them up individually in the computer then don't tell me you won't get paid for it on a brand new vehicle under warranty. Also this time instead of just giving them the TSB numbers I'm coming in with the printed TSBs from W2K.
 
#41 ·
One of the biggest problems with the whole dealer service experiance is the information and discriptipn of issues we give the service advisor never makes it to the techs. We may give the service advisor a sentense or two concerning the issue and then they pound three nebulous words onto the key board and the techs never get the full understanding of the issue.
 
#43 ·
One of the biggest problems with the whole dealer service experiance is the information and discriptipn of issues we give the service advisor never makes it to the techs. We may give the service advisor a sentense or two concerning the issue and then they pound three nebulous words onto the key board and the techs never get the full understanding of the issue.
When it's something that needs a diagnoses, ask to speak to the rep who will work on your vehicle. This is particularly helpful when it's a noise. The service writer will typically write check for noise. A minute describing it to the tech can narrow things down.

The last time I went in for an oil change/tire rotation, I also wanted one TSB done. I brought it in and a copy was attached to the work order. But the service writer put down that the customer wanted the vehicle checked for all TSBs. They wound up doing two additional ones that I didn't need. No harm done, but that extra layer between the customer and the tech is not always helpful. This gets worse when the service writer has no mechanical experience.


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#42 ·
Very true slilvermax but when you come in with a printout and your particular info is highlighted and the diagnosis and fix is right there in black in white,all you do is frustrate the customer and possibly lose business as the service department is the real money maker for the dealer not car sales.
 
#44 ·
Absolutely agree with you,being vague is never good when talking to the service writer but when you hand them documented info and tell them you're experiencing the symptoms on the TSBs that you have attached to the write up,there should be no issues. More likely then not you don't know which tech will work on your vehicle especially if you don't have a lot of time and they've whisked you off in your loaner until they finish the work. But never tell a customer they won't get paid for the work if its not verified by their witech laptop which may not be not up to date which is the dealers responsibility and don't waste the customers time telling them what they can't do when the TSB says they can and should if the customer is complaining about specific issues tied to the TSB. It's the owners choice to have the updates done if they apply to that vehicle..the sticker for those TSBs should then be placed in the engine compartment for later referral if there are any issues down the road.
 
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