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  #13  
Old 01-05-2014, 07:55 PM
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Re: Is my 2014 Laredo a Lemon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johngreen1234 View Post
1. No warranty that I'm aware of protects the buyer's resale value. Nor am I aware of any lemon law that protects it, but I've already slapped my forehead numb, so I'm certainly ready to be educated on that point.

2. Perhaps I was once again not reading carefully when you talked about the steering wheel being off center, when you meant to say that the steering pulls, a clear safety issue?

3. Regarding your previous lemon car, thank you for clearing this up. A safety issue is a safety issue. It seems remarkable to me that given how few cars nationwide are bought back over safety issues, that you would have two of them in so short a time?

4. Certainly I'm an outsider here on the WK2 forum, but like I said I'm taking an active interest in what may be my next car. I agree there seem to be quite a few issues here, but I've also seen solutions and solutions-in-progress, and some disagreement over whether some of these problems exist in the first place.
1: Its not a warranty.... Its a law.... Here is the link to the law:
New and Leased Car Lemon Law
....and here is a little summary paragraph which proves that point:

The Massachusetts Lemon Law protects consumers who have serious defects in their new cars. The law defines a lemon as a new or leased motor vehicle that has a defect which substantially impairs the use, market value, or safety of the vehicle, and which has not been repaired after a reasonable number of attempts. (M.G.L. c. 90, 7;7N1/2 ) If your new or leased vehicle has a substantial defect that still exists or recurs after a reasonable number of repair attempts, then you may have the right to a refund or replacement vehicle. Keep in mind that not all car problems are serious enough to qualify under the Lemon Law.

2: My comment was if the steering wheel was attempted to be held straight it would cause a severe divergence in direction. So someone not expecting the wheel to be crooked, like my wife, would be at risk of accidentally going the wrong direction.

4: If you can honestly read through the forums and not agree that Chrysler took some shortcuts in getting these vehicles out I would be very surprised. I have been a lifetime Jeep owner and have never had one with this number of challenges that were not easily addressed by a dealer. I am also a lifetime forum member for a variety of different jeep sites, though new to Jeepgarage, and have never seen the outcrying over the same repetitive issue dismissed as "predatory customers". I would love to have my Jeep fixed and as promised by the company that manufactures it..... that is not inclusive of a transmission problem. My only reason for sending the Final Repair Attempt Letter to Chrysler is because the TSB's and Warranty repairs are not getting the job done and I want to at least have Chrysler's attention on a Corporate Level to the issues of my specific vehicle so that I am protected from being stuck in a 3 year lease with a vehicle with unresolved problems.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:17 PM
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Re: Is my 2014 Laredo a Lemon?

1. "Market value" . . . my head is swimming! I could rant for hours on the topic of a "consumer" protection law that protects market value, but in brief, the law is at fault (IMO). Go ahead and exploit it to the fullest--it's your right!

2. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with your argument about steering wheel orientation, but I was dead certain about #1, and look how that went!

4. This is what got me involved in the thread in the first place: Whatever the company's doing in cutting corners, what does that have to do with your right to shove a purchase back at them?

ANSWER: If the law allows it to be declared a lemon, then it's a lemon.
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngreen1234 View Post
1. "Market value" . . . my head is swimming! I could rant for hours on the topic of a "consumer" protection law that protects market value, but in brief, the law is at fault (IMO). Go ahead and exploit it to the fullest--it's your right! 2. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with your argument about steering wheel orientation, but I was dead certain about #1, and look how that went! 4. This is what got me involved in the thread in the first place: Whatever the company's doing in cutting corners, what does that have to do with your right to shove a purchase back at them? ANSWER: If the law allows it to be declared a lemon, then it's a lemon.
If the company cuts corners and ships a defective product, the consumer should haves every right to "shove" their purchase back at them. Chrysler isn't giving away JGCs though they are aggressively priced compared to their European competition which isn't exactly problem free either.

Why are you so anti-consumer?
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:40 PM
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Re: Is my 2014 Laredo a Lemon?

Okay, but what about my consumer rights?

Everytime the law empowers a new elite class of victim, the rest of us have to pay for it, and not just in higher car prices. When a consumer in one state is able to throw back a car for market value concerns, yes, the rest of us have to pay for that car--Chrysler is not a charity. But when a law steps in to regulate a market, the company stops building products for the consumer and starts bulding products for the law. And the marketplace always moves faster than the law.

When highway safety is at issue, it's a good thing that a car company is required by law to put seat belts and air bags in a car. Similarly, even though I'm not throwing my own car back, I benefit from knowing that the car coming towards me on the highway doesn't have a steering defect.

But how do I benefit if the law protects resale value and/or purely cosmetic issues? ANSWER: I benefit only by joining in the Gold Rush and throwing back a car I'm tired of soon, before the law comes to its senses.

In the OP's case, I think he's simply frustrated with a really lousy dealer, and may be exercising the nuclear option somewhat too early, IMO. And yes, I suspect buyer's remorse is playing a role here.
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngreen1234 View Post
Okay, but what about my consumer rights? Everytime the law empowers a new elite class of victim, the rest of us have to pay for it, and not just in higher car prices. When a consumer in one state is able to throw back a car for market value concerns, yes, the rest of us have to pay for that car--Chrysler is not a charity. But when a law steps in to regulate a market, the company stops building products for the consumer and starts bulding products for the law. And the marketplace always moves faster than the law. When highway safety is at issue, it's a good thing that a car company is required by law to put seat belts and air bags in a car. Similarly, even though I'm not throwing my own car back, I benefit from knowing that the car coming towards me on the highway doesn't have a steering defect. But how do I benefit if the law protects resale value and/or purely cosmetic issues? ANSWER: I benefit only by joining in the Gold Rush and throwing back a car I'm tired of soon, before the law comes to its senses. In the OP's case, I think he's simply frustrated with a really lousy dealer, and may be exercising the nuclear option somewhat too early, IMO. And yes, I suspect buyer's remorse is playing a role here.
You benefit because Chrysler has more incentive to improve the quality of its vehicles. If an auto company knowingly ships a defective product it is a form of consumer fraud.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:20 PM
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Re: Is my 2014 Laredo a Lemon?

I am certainly not JUST frustrated by a lousy dealer, actually my dealer has been fantastic in their responsiveness and has applied every TSB and other fixes as identified by Chrysler. I will admit the seat is a nuissance, not a defect. However, Chrysler has responded to my letter and is now keeping my GC at the dealer as they have identified the defective transmission and Steering rack/alignment to be repeat "defects" and they are officially making a "final repair attempt" under the Mass Lemon Law.
John, your perception and qualification of the issues I have raised as being a predatory consumer is highly mistaken. Yes, the steering wheel not being straight would be a detraction from market value only, but the repetitive nature of this issue coming back after repair attempts make this a safety issue as well. The transmission shifting problems, obviously a KNOWN issue per Chrysler's repeated attempts to reprogram them via TSB's, is both a market value issue as well as a safety issue. the upshift from 1st to 2nd was abrupt and annoying, but if i was already accelerating you could make the claim it was only a minor issue. The downshift, however, into 1st was so abrupt that when coming to a stop at an intersection, if my foot was not FIRMLY on the brake pedal beyond what would normally be required the downshift would cause the whole truck to lurch forward a couple of feet. I would say that is a significant safety issue.

NONE of my issues, removing the seat squeaking as I have admited, are purely cosmetic. Also, the "Lemon Law" is not the "nuclear option". If I sued Chrysler and forced them to take the car that could be said, but the Lemon Law is solely in place to force a company to take responsibility for defects in its product. Chrysler can fix my vehicle and I will be very happy as I do love my Jeep....no one is saying they should take the truck back and burn it. It seems to me as though you dont quite understand the Lemon Law based on these comments.

And FYI, no buyers remorse. If my truck has to be replaced I want either another Grand Cherokee or a Durango.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:34 PM
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Re: Is my 2014 Laredo a Lemon?

One additional point about the law covering Market Value.... The parents of a good friend of mine were the owners of a 2007 Toyota Camry XLE V6. They had that car for nearly 4 years, in the course of which they had 3 recalls, 10 TSB, and a variety of other challenges. They were impacted by the recall for the floor mats, the one for the gas pedals, and there was a TSB (not sure why this wasnt a recall) for an engine oil cooling system failure that actually caused their vehicle to need to have the entire motor rebuilt, both bottom and top end, at 64k miles. Yes, Toyota stepped up and covered this under warranty even though it was outside of the coverage, but only because they knew it was a TSB that had been missed....
That all said, when they went to trade the car in for a new vehicle they were blind sided by a HUGE reduction in the fair market value of the car. A 2006 Camry, at the time, was worth close to $4k more than their 2007. They also found this to be a factor on the 2008 that a friend of theirs had. Another person they knew had a 2009, just after most of the recalls, and had no such issue.
Under the NJ Consumer Protection and Lemon Laws, where they live, they were not able to file to protect them against severely impacted market value that was caused by the manufacturer themselves. They joined a class action law suit against Toyota that was settled recently for a very substantial number. In turn, they were given about $5,000, realistically about the difference in what the car should have been worth had Toyota not made a severely defective product.
You can easily make the argument that not all of these are safety issues, you can even say that as they were all repaired without cost to the owner that they were "whole" in terms of the quality of the car. But John, per your statement, the law should not have done anything to provide for them coverage of significant money lost due to manufacturer negligence??? The NJ and Federal courts disagreed, thankfully.
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