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  #13  
Old 01-07-2011, 01:17 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by JoeSchmoe007 View Post
But the thief relay is still on. Car thinks fob is inside. Nothing prevents thief pressing "Start" button which will unlock transmission interlock and engine will work until it is stopped

Joe, you said "...I still think allowing engine to run if key is not inside the car [...] is not a good idea IMO." By that I assumed you were talking about using the Remote Start feature, which is what I addressed. But from this response, I think I was wrong. If that's not what you were talking about, then I apologize.
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  #14  
Old 01-07-2011, 01:22 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by bpmcgee View Post
Joe, you said "...I still think allowing engine to run if key is not inside the car [...] is not a good idea IMO." By that I assumed you were talking about using the Remote Start feature, which is what I addressed. But from this response, I think I was wrong. If that's not what you were talking about, then I apologize.
Sure, no problem. Just to clarify completely - this is what I mean: I drive to the car wash. Key is in my pocket. I get out of the car and car wash employee gets in. Key is no longer in the vehicle but it can be driven as long as you don't shut down the engine or run out of gas. I don't think this should be allowed. In this circumstance engine should give a 5 minutes warning and then shut down or speed limit to a couple MPH.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:41 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

We're getting off-topic here, but the consequences of stopping the engine or limiting it to some very low speed would be really devastating to Chrysler and maybe to the driver.

Remember that Chrysler is designing this for the real world, when things DO fail. With a vehicle this complex, even mapping all the failure modes is impossible -- let alone anticipating them. And they have to design so that it NEVER fails into a hazardous state due to liability issues. So, since they can't GUARANTEE that the system would never wrongly think there was no fob (or that the fob never dies while the vehicle is in motion), they MUST design it to never cause an issue like slowing down to 5 MPH on an expressway.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:45 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

That is a great point, I wouldn't want the system shutting my jeep down on the freeway going 65MPH! I am curious to know if you start the car, leave the key fob behind and start driving what would happen. You would be starting from a complete stop so I wonder if that makes a difference.
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2011, 01:48 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by bpmcgee View Post
We're getting off-topic here, but the consequences of stopping the engine or limiting it to some very low speed would be really devastating to Chrysler and maybe to the driver.

Remember that Chrysler is designing this for the real world, when things DO fail. With a vehicle this complex, even mapping all the failure modes is impossible -- let alone anticipating them. And they have to design so that it NEVER fails into a hazardous state due to liability issues. So, since they can't GUARANTEE that the system would never wrongly think there was no fob (or that the fob never dies while the vehicle is in motion), they MUST design it to never cause an issue like slowing down to 5 MPH on an expressway.
If there is a warning and 5 minutes delay I don't see a problem - this is enough time to get off the expressway. Maybe make delay longer - say 10-20 minutes.

On a related note no component is fail-proof - car can become disabled for a number of other reasons. Say something breaks in the engine and car stops - I can't see this as a liability issue for Chrysler. Things happen.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:50 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by computerwiz621 View Post
That is a great point, I wouldn't want the system shutting my jeep down on the freeway going 65MPH! I am curious to know if you start the car, leave the key fob behind and start driving what would happen. You would be starting from a complete stop so I wonder if that makes a difference.
I haven't tried this yet but most likely you can just drive away - nothing will happen. You may get an indication on EVIC that key is not inside the car but you will be able to continue driving.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:04 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by JoeSchmoe007 View Post
If there is a warning and 5 minutes delay I don't see a problem - this is enough time to get off the expressway. Maybe make delay longer - say 10-20 minutes.

On a related note no component is fail-proof - car can become disabled for a number of other reasons. Say something breaks in the engine and car stops - I can't see this as a liability issue for Chrysler. Things happen.
Exactly! Things happen! It's impossible to second-guess how long would be "safe enough" in EVERY case.

Prosecuting Attorney: So, you worked as a Chrysler helping to design this system -- the system which KILLED my clients beloved mother -- and you didn't take into account that the key fob battery might run out? Batteries run out all the time!

Engineer: Her dash board lit up telling her that there was no key fob. The logs show the light was on for 10 hours before the engine shut down.

Attorney: But she was an old woman! You can't have expected her to notice EVERYTHING! And surely if something as dangerous as the engine shutting down on the expressway was going to happen, more than a LIGHT would be required? There's 30 lights on the dash board, and quite frankly even _I_ don't know what they all mean!

Judge: Neither do I. Summary judgment for the plaintiff.

Liability is about avoiding the possibility of being second guessed. Liability of negligence is doubly so. With a dead plaintiff, the courts often will rule against the big company anyway based on deep pockets. The result is that the engineer won't take any positive action which could directly lead to that event. The down side of them NOT doing it your way is that a car MIGHT get stolen, which is the thieves fault, not Chryslers.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:12 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

Although they may be able to steal your car using any of these methods, but it will only run until it runs out of gas or they shut it off. I don't see without hacking how they could bypass the computer to restart the car without the key fob. I guess if you are concerned about theft, you could always lojack it. My thinking is, if they really want the car, they will figure it out one way or another.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:33 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

This is not necessary just to steel a car. The car is too big of a target and it may have a Lojack etc.

What thieves want is to get access to the car and steal your laptop, wallet etc. It is far easier to do and a lot more difficult to demostrate that they did it.

There are many cases in europe,( the highways, have usually rest areas with gas stations restaurants etc) where this has happened.

I have a friend who claims it happened to him. I say claims, because he cannot prove it. usually the thieves park in an empty spot and you the victim, would park next to them. The moment you push the remote key button, you are done.

The mall would be a very easy place to have this modus operandi. This is why I never have anything valuable in my car.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:02 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by computerwiz621 View Post
Although they may be able to steal your car using any of these methods, but it will only run until it runs out of gas or they shut it off. I don't see without hacking how they could bypass the computer to restart the car without the key fob. I guess if you are concerned about theft, you could always lojack it. My thinking is, if they really want the car, they will figure it out one way or another.

Assuming they can get the car first. Restarting the car after reaching their destination is of no use or consequence.

The name of the game with late model, high production vehicles is "chop shop". Get it to the location, shut it down, tear it down and e-bay or black market the parts.

High end cars are the ones that will change hands or countries in one piece after theft. Think Porsche, Ferrari, Asti Martin, etc..
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:04 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

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Originally Posted by bpmcgee View Post
Exactly! Things happen! It's impossible to second-guess how long would be "safe enough" in EVERY case.

Prosecuting Attorney: So, you worked as a Chrysler helping to design this system -- the system which KILLED my clients beloved mother -- and you didn't take into account that the key fob battery might run out? Batteries run out all the time!

Engineer: Her dash board lit up telling her that there was no key fob. The logs show the light was on for 10 hours before the engine shut down.

Attorney: But she was an old woman! You can't have expected her to notice EVERYTHING! And surely if something as dangerous as the engine shutting down on the expressway was going to happen, more than a LIGHT would be required? There's 30 lights on the dash board, and quite frankly even _I_ don't know what they all mean!

Judge: Neither do I. Summary judgment for the plaintiff.

Liability is about avoiding the possibility of being second guessed. Liability of negligence is doubly so. With a dead plaintiff, the courts often will rule against the big company anyway based on deep pockets. The result is that the engineer won't take any positive action which could directly lead to that event. The down side of them NOT doing it your way is that a car MIGHT get stolen, which is the thieves fault, not Chryslers.
I see your point, but where do you draw the line? What if car stopped on the highway because old lady never noticed "fuel low" indicator and ran out of gas? Is this Chryslers' fault? I don't think any jury would agree with that. IMO situation with keyfob is exactly the same.
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2011, 03:32 PM
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Re: Keyless entry vulnerability

It's not the same because Chrysler didn't DECIDE to stop the engine if she runs out of gas. God did, and he's not available for service of process.
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