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  #97  
Old 11-21-2013, 11:45 AM
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GCLimited, what I'm trying to do is get you to think a little more about the problems and all the aspects of them before running around calling engineers "idiots." Engineering in the real world is always a compromise. Your own "solutions" perfectly demonstrate this. For every solution you have proposed, you also created a new customer-facing problem.

This sort of thing isn't "easy" like you've made it out to be. Are there better ways to do it? Yes...but they have to be weighed against implementation complexity, cost, other issues they may cause, and so forth. Plus, it's a learning game. For every compromise you make, you have to weigh that against the complaints you'll receive for either increasing cost, creating another issue or affecting an even different functionality.
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  #98  
Old 11-21-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GCLimited View Post
Seems Peter you have an excuss for everything... What is all boils down to is the delayed outside temperature reading in the 2014 GC is an issue...and as proof Chrysler has a fix supposedly coming down the pike. And the issue was not caught by the software engineers, the testing group, nor the quality group. Plain & simple...fail.
Plain and simple to you as you're only seeing this from a simplistic view. If it's so simple why isn't that fix already in place? Because it's not simple and it likely has been noted to cause other issues.

I'm also quite certain this tradeoff wasn't something that wasn't "caught." It was a known compromise that was hoped would be good enough for the majority and in the interim. Yes, there are deadlines that have to be met. To you, it's easy to say "well, hold off until it's ready." I'll see how you react if that cost of delay (sometimes, amortized, can approach hundreds of thousands of dollars per day depending on the situation) is coming out of your pocket directly.

Do you remotely realize what the Cherokee delay due to transmission software cost Chrysler? It was huge. That decision was made because it was deemed to be worth that cost due to the fact that driveability was seen as a much larger long-term cost.

You think simplistically about this, and then call engineers idiots for not using the simple solutions you propose--all of which had problems in and of themselves.

You bought your vehicle at some price, but probably wouldn't have if it cost 10,20,or 30k more and everything was perfect. Or, if they waited to make it so, you'd have bought something else because...it didn't exist.

You think these are excuses, when in fact they are realities of doing business. Every single manufacturer has these issues--I've seen them firsthand. From crashing PCMs to protocol issues to displays freaking out. From Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, GM, Audi, etc...etc...etc. most prevalent after a new change to design.

Tell me something...why didn't you buy a Tesla, or maybe one of the extreme luxury hand-built vehicles that aren't mass produced and are 100% component-level tested? Oh...because you didn't have 100, 200, or 500k to drop on them more than likely. So...why is it you think that a mass-produced vehicle should have no tradeoffs in testing or design? Why do you believe that?
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  #99  
Old 11-21-2013, 12:26 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

Would a MOD please close this bi*ch fest of a thread or clean up all this banter?
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  #100  
Old 11-21-2013, 12:44 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

If the sensor gets covered in mud or slush it will show 47 degrees. It takes about 10 minutes of driving give or take for it to reset once the your clear off the sensor.

I like having the outside temp sensor for when temps are close to freezing and the roads are wet. My previous vehicle did not have an outside temp sensor which made winter driving interesting.

Temps are accurate as are the reading for TPMS which are accurate to within one psi. My certified tire pressure gauge is accurate 1/2 of 1%. Do not use the pencil type gauges.

Omar
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  #101  
Old 11-21-2013, 12:47 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

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Originally Posted by 760hacker View Post
Would a MOD please close this bi*ch fest of a thread or clean up all this banter?
I second this motion.
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  #102  
Old 11-21-2013, 01:49 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post

GCLimited, what I'm trying to do is get you to think a little more about the problems and all the aspects of them before running around calling engineers "idiots." Engineering in the real world is always a compromise.
I work at a Global company, and I am fully aware of the term "compromise".

I am also a consumer...an owner of a Chrysler/Jeep product, and as an owner of a $40,000+ vehicle I have expectations...and the right to complain when something a simple as an outside temperature reading does not function as it should.

Is it the end of the world, of course not...1st world issue for sure, but it's still bothers me when I remote start my vehicle in the morning...one of the selling points of the vehicle that interested me.
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  #103  
Old 11-21-2013, 01:54 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post

Tell me something...why didn't you buy a Tesla, or maybe one of the extreme luxury hand-built vehicles that aren't mass produced and are 100% component-level tested? Oh...because you didn't have 100, 200, or 500k to drop on them more than likely. So...why is it you think that a mass-produced vehicle should have no tradeoffs in testing or design? Why do you believe that?
I've owned vehicles that were less the cost of my 2014 GC and had better reliability records...with auto transmissions that didn't shift like shit, did not have CELs when driving off the dealers lot, and had outside temperature displays that functioned correctly.
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  #104  
Old 11-21-2013, 04:36 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by GCLimited View Post
I've owned vehicles that were less the cost of my 2014 GC and had better reliability records...with auto transmissions that didn't shift like shit, did not have CELs when driving off the dealers lot, and had outside temperature displays that functioned correctly.
Ah but I suspect you are once again comparing simpler to more complex in an effort to make your point.

First, did these past vehicles of yours have a first-year transmission like the one you're claiming "shifts like shit?" I'm willing to bet not...I'm also willing to bet it wasn't an 8-speed with the complexity of the one you're referring to. I can distinctly remember complaints about 5 and 6 speeds when they came out, as well as electronic TCC causing shift quality issues from MULTIPLE manufacturers during first year runs. By the following year, or shortly thereafter, the customer complaints were mostly sorted out.

Your CEL when driving off the dealer's lot: That was a one-off and they happen to all manufacturers. If I remember correctly, you actually had a bad airbag module that had to be replaced. That sucks...and you drew the unlucky straw but it can flat happen to anyone. There have not been a rash of bad airbag modules or complaints of this particular nature of any significant percentage. You just drew the unlucky straw on that one. Even if they have 99.9% perfect quality, with 100,000 vehicles, that means 100 will have an issue like you had. Break that down further, with an average of 30,000 parts in a new vehicle, with that same 99.9% quality, you still have 30 marginal or bad parts. Think about it.

And I'm willing to bet your past vehicles with "fully functional" temperature displays didn't also operate a remote-start HVAC system--which is where the complaints are stemming. More complicated--more tradeoffs.

I note something: I don't see anywhere near the number of complaints about base-model Grand Cherokees without all the doo-dads. Why? Because when you add complexity (especially in a first-year run and two big things changed this year -- electrical architecture and software, and transmissions) you can't test everything 100%.

My point here is that I don't think your expectations, given all the parameters, are necessarily appropriate given the price point and the number of features being crammed into that price point. You have not suffered through catastrophic vehicle failure. It works. It has some annoyances which are being corrected (almost all software) but you behave as though you bought a rambling wreck.

You speak of engineers (which you aren't) as if they are incompetent idiots without knowing the first thing about how to solve these issues. And when you do try to offer up solutions indignantly, they are short-sighted and ineffective or would cause other problems (although you smugly act as though the issue is sooo easy to solve). THAT to me is the offensive part. I can understand your wanting the perfect vehicle. I can understand your needing to vent even. What I can't understand is your attitude of superiority when you don't even seem to have a basic clue about how to compare apples to apples or even all the parameters involved in solving these very complex issues.
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  #105  
Old 11-21-2013, 11:39 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanolsonm View Post
Firstly, let me say that I am disappointed in the remote start feature (a feature I was very excited about) due to the HVAC not coming on until I enter the vehicle. To add to the problem, the remote start comfort features aren't working because the temperature sensor reads 10-15 degrees warmer than it really is. I have given it ten minutes to adjust the temperature several times with no luck. Because I live in an area where it might get into the 20s once or twice a year, I haven't been able to reach the 40 degrees necessary to activate the comfort features. Any ideas?

Additional info:
2013 5.7L Limited
Welcome to the club, ours started acting up after 3 weeks, the temp would be 83 degrees and the temp reading would freeze up at 66 degrees. Then in the evening when it would cool down it would start to work again or at least move in the correct direction.
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  #106  
Old 11-21-2013, 11:43 PM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Ah but I suspect you are once again comparing simpler to more complex in an effort to make your point.

First, did these past vehicles of yours have a first-year transmission like the one you're claiming "shifts like shit?" I'm willing to bet not...I'm also willing to bet it wasn't an 8-speed with the complexity of the one you're referring to. I can distinctly remember complaints about 5 and 6 speeds when they came out, as well as electronic TCC causing shift quality issues from MULTIPLE manufacturers during first year runs. By the following year, or shortly thereafter, the customer complaints were mostly sorted out.

Your CEL when driving off the dealer's lot: That was a one-off and they happen to all manufacturers. If I remember correctly, you actually had a bad airbag module that had to be replaced. That sucks...and you drew the unlucky straw but it can flat happen to anyone. There have not been a rash of bad airbag modules or complaints of this particular nature of any significant percentage. You just drew the unlucky straw on that one. Even if they have 99.9% perfect quality, with 100,000 vehicles, that means 100 will have an issue like you had. Break that down further, with an average of 30,000 parts in a new vehicle, with that same 99.9% quality, you still have 30 marginal or bad parts. Think about it.

And I'm willing to bet your past vehicles with "fully functional" temperature displays didn't also operate a remote-start HVAC system--which is where the complaints are stemming. More complicated--more tradeoffs.

I note something: I don't see anywhere near the number of complaints about base-model Grand Cherokees without all the doo-dads. Why? Because when you add complexity (especially in a first-year run and two big things changed this year -- electrical architecture and software, and transmissions) you can't test everything 100%.

My point here is that I don't think your expectations, given all the parameters, are necessarily appropriate given the price point and the number of features being crammed into that price point. You have not suffered through catastrophic vehicle failure. It works. It has some annoyances which are being corrected (almost all software) but you behave as though you bought a rambling wreck.

You speak of engineers (which you aren't) as if they are incompetent idiots without knowing the first thing about how to solve these issues. And when you do try to offer up solutions indignantly, they are short-sighted and ineffective or would cause other problems (although you smugly act as though the issue is sooo easy to solve). THAT to me is the offensive part. I can understand your wanting the perfect vehicle. I can understand your needing to vent even. What I can't understand is your attitude of superiority when you don't even seem to have a basic clue about how to compare apples to apples or even all the parameters involved in solving these very complex issues.
How about they properly test the darn thing before putting it into production. Our new Fords had remote start that would perform similar functions to the Jeeps and they worked just fine.
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  #107  
Old 11-22-2013, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2014 summit View Post
How about they properly test the darn thing before putting it into production. Our new Fords had remote start that would perform similar functions to the Jeeps and they worked just fine.
You're joking right? I JUST read pages and pages of forums on F-150s, Edges, and so forth having VERY similar issues with remote start and HVAC controls. Flaky, doesn't always work, temperature reading not always accurate, etc. and that took me all of a MINUTE to find on Google--nevermind the other data I have access to. I mean really...again, if YOU had a good experience with Ford, great. But come out from under your rock and realize a lot of these issues are pretty common across the industry for a lot of reasons as I've been trying to say.
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  #108  
Old 11-22-2013, 07:16 AM
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Re: Outside Temperature Sensor Problem

My '07 Jeep (purchased in '07, traded in '11) had no service other than oil changes. Therefore all Jeeps are perfect.

My '14 has had some issues. Therefore all Jeeps suck.


Personal experience has a lot more to do with the perception of quality than all the reports and statistics in the world.



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