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  #13  
Old 11-21-2013, 08:37 PM
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Re: People only come here to complain

Here's the interesting thing about all this quality talk. If you look at the actual raw statistics (2013), and when someone isn't skewing them by changing graph scales, the difference between the "best" in terms of problems per 100 vehicles vs. the worst isn't that huge. The scale goes from around 80 or so (Porsche) to 161 (Scion -- hmm...Toyota anyone?). The industry average is around 113, and Jeep by itself sits just slightly below the industry average at 118, above Volkswagon, Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and others.

For the most part, the manufacturers cluster in a fairly small range here and note that a lot of these "problems" aren't major among any of them.

Those who state that Jeep just simply has quality issues that are SO much worse than the rest of the industry simply don't have the figures to back it up.

Would I like to see better numbers for ALL the manufacturers? Sure. Including Jeep. But there simply aren't MASSIVE differences going on here.


From J.D. Powers:

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Old 11-21-2013, 08:43 PM
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Re: People only come here to complain

I do believe there are a lot of cry baby Jeep owners. There are also too many folks with legitimate complaints.

AMC2002 is the epitome of someone who, through all the serious problems, was rooting for his Jeep. He kept his cool (mostly) and gave Jeep every opportunity to keep his vehicle running 'safely' down the highway. They couldn't do it.

As for expecting the Grand Cherokee to be rugged and luxurious, that is the promise, and if they don't live up to the promise, shame on Chrysler.


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Old 11-21-2013, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Here's the interesting thing about all this quality talk. If you look at the actual raw statistics (2013), and when someone isn't skewing them by changing graph scales, the difference between the "best" in terms of problems per 100 vehicles vs. the worst isn't that huge. The scale goes from around 80 or so (Porsche) to 161 (Scion -- hmm...Toyota anyone?). The industry average is around 113, and Jeep by itself sits just slightly below the industry average at 118, above Volkswagon, Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and others.

For the most part, the manufacturers cluster in a fairly small range here and note that a lot of these "problems" aren't major among any of them.

Those who state that Jeep just simply has quality issues that are SO much worse than the rest of the industry simply don't have the figures to back it up.

Would I like to see better numbers for ALL the manufacturers? Sure. Including Jeep. But there simply aren't MASSIVE differences going on here.

From J.D. Powers:
These graphs always surprise me in terms of where manufactures fall and small variances for some.

Simply in my own conceptions (obviously misconceptions) I'm surprised Chevy, Jag is that "good" and Subaru and scion is that "bad"... Guess old beliefs die hard
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:25 PM
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Re: People only come here to complain

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Originally Posted by GCLimited View Post
I'd be happy if Chrysler/Jeep just brought their dealership chain, auto technicians, quality control, and customer service into the 21st century. Take a walk through a Toyota or Honda dealership to see how it's done right.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 2014 GC, but I had A LOT of initial issues...and it looks I'll have more to come with this latest recall.



This is my first Jeep product, and to tell you the truth, I'm not all that impressed.
Diddo here on everything you've said. WE purchased the 2014 GC Summit loaded, still in the shop after 8 days.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:36 PM
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Re: People only come here to complain

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
Here's the interesting thing about all this quality talk. If you look at the actual raw statistics (2013), and when someone isn't skewing them by changing graph scales, the difference between the "best" in terms of problems per 100 vehicles vs. the worst isn't that huge. The scale goes from around 80 or so (Porsche) to 161 (Scion -- hmm...Toyota anyone?). The industry average is around 113, and Jeep by itself sits just slightly below the industry average at 118, above Volkswagon, Mazda, Subaru, Nissan, and others.

For the most part, the manufacturers cluster in a fairly small range here and note that a lot of these "problems" aren't major among any of them.

Those who state that Jeep just simply has quality issues that are SO much worse than the rest of the industry simply don't have the figures to back it up.

Would I like to see better numbers for ALL the manufacturers? Sure. Including Jeep. But there simply aren't MASSIVE differences going on here.


From J.D. Powers:

Funny I had a 2011 Nissan Xterra and a 2012 370Z and never had one tiny little problem with either vehicle. I'm not buying this whole chart, my GC Summit has been in the shop more times than the last 7 new vehicles I've owned (2007 to 2013). The other 5 were Fords and they didn't have problems like the Jeep. I had 2 Shelby's 2007 & 2010 one 2012 Raptor one 2011 Edge one 2012 SEL Focus and 2 F-150 Platinums 2009 & 2010 and like I said never had the problems my Jeep has experienced since purchasing it in May 2013. Really like the product just not the continuous barrage of issues, crap we just want to drive the darn thing and enjoy it. Well we do get to drive it I guess, back and forth to the dealership.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 2014 summit View Post
Funny I had a 2011 Nissan Xterra and a 2012 370Z and never had one tiny little problem with either vehicle. I'm not buying this whole chart, my GC Summit has been in the shop more times than the last 7 new vehicles I've owned (2007 to 2013). The other 5 were Fords and they didn't have problems like the Jeep. I had 2 Shelby's 2007 & 2010 one 2012 Raptor one 2011 Edge one 2012 SEL Focus and 2 F-150 Platinums 2009 & 2010 and like I said never had the problems my Jeep has experienced since purchasing it in May 2013. Really like the product just not the continuous barrage of issues, crap we just want to drive the darn thing and enjoy it. Well we do get to drive it I guess, back and forth to the dealership.
And here we go. J.D. Powers has been one of the most widely used and respected statistical groups for determining vehicle quality ratings -- among other things. But...because YOU had SPECIFIC experiences, their data must be made up or something. Come on already. If you note, some people have good experiences with specific vehicles...some people bad. Some have problems to report...some fewer, some more, some none. When this data is gathered and analyzed, this is one of the charts you get. Simple as that. It isn't a lie or skewed or biased simply because it doesn't match YOUR singular experience with each type of car.

For example...I've known 3 people with no end of issues on their Fords, including an F-150 and an Edge. Ah! Now we have a sample set that includes more than just you. Just looking at YOUR data says Ford is awesome. Looking at yours and the ones I mentioned now says Ford is doing rather poorly. Start adding it all up with MORE samples and then you can start making charts like the one given by J.D. Powers.
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:57 AM
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Re: People only come here to complain

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post

And here we go. J.D. Powers has been one of the most widely used and respected statistical groups for determining vehicle quality ratings -- among other things.
I trust Consumer Reports WAY more than I would ever trust JD Power.

Quote:
For example...I've known 3 people with no end of issues on their Fords, including an F-150 and an Edge. Ah! Now we have a sample set that includes more than just you. Just looking at YOUR data says Ford is awesome. Looking at yours and the ones I mentioned now says Ford is doing rather poorly. Start adding it all up with MORE samples and then you can start making charts like the one given by J.D. Powers.
I'll tell you want I do know...about 35,000 hits on my thread "I Think I Fixed My Rough Shifting Transmission" here on this site. So it's safe to assume that I'm not the only one having transmission issues for instance.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by GCLimited View Post
I trust Consumer Reports WAY more than I would ever trust JD Power.
Why? Because one supports your rhetoric right now and one doesn't in generalities?

Quote:
I'll tell you want I do know...about 35,000 hits on my thread "I Think I Fixed My Rough Shifting Transmission" here on this site. So it's safe to assume that I'm not the only one having transmission issues for instance.
Uh...you do realize that 35,000 "hits" doesn't mean 35,000 people:

1) Have the problem
2) Are separate individuals. The number ticks up anytime someone views it, even if they viewed it before.

You know that, right?

And FYI...I've never said there weren't improvements that could be made to the transmission's shift quality on the V6 models. But...that tends to happen with first-year models and transmissions with software shift schedules and control. I know that. I've seen THAT on practically every make and model out there when a new transmission design is introduced (especially more complicated ones or ones with more gear ratios than previously). They generally get sorted out within the model year, and there's generally no way to completely test for this. Different people drive differently, and until you get a large, representative number of people in the set, you can only shoot for best guesses. In addition, unless it's REALLY bad (as in, can damage things or affect operation), as long as it's in the 80th percentile it'll go to production with the plan to update it in the field.

For things like first year release transmissions under software control, if you want perfect, I'd recommend avoiding them from any manufacturer. You'll have to put up with a little weirdness as it gets sorted out over the first 6-12 months.

And no, you can't test that out. Sorry...you're a bit of a beta-tester here no matter how much you, or the manufacturer, doesn't like it. It's simply not feasible to build thousands of test vehicles to get a representative number of transmission builds with their little variances and test software that has myriads of inputs and outputs with thousands of different drivers before releasing it. It goes through testing--quite a lot, but you can't scale it like that to see how it needs to be tweaked without much more input. Every mass-market car manufacturer would go out of business trying to do that because you wouldn't be able to afford the vehicles.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:27 AM
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Re: People only come here to complain

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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post

Why? Because one supports your rhetoric right now and one doesn't in generalities?

Uh...you do realize that 35,000 "hits" doesn't mean 35,000 people:

1) Have the problem
2) Are separate individuals. The number ticks up anytime someone views it, even if they viewed it before.

You know that, right?

And FYI...I've never said there weren't improvements that could be made to the transmission's shift quality on the V6 models. But...that tends to happen with first-year models and transmissions with software shift schedules and control. I know that. I've seen THAT on practically every make and model out there when a new transmission design is introduced (especially more complicated ones or ones with more gear ratios than previously). They generally get sorted out within the model year, and there's generally no way to completely test for this. Different people drive differently, and until you get a large, representative number of people in the set, you can only shoot for best guesses. In addition, unless it's REALLY bad (as in, can damage things or affect operation), as long as it's in the 80th percentile it'll go to production with the plan to update it in the field.

For things like first year release transmissions under software control, if you want perfect, I'd recommend avoiding them from any manufacturer. You'll have to put up with a little weirdness as it gets sorted out over the first 6-12 months.

And no, you can't test that out. Sorry...you're a bit of a beta-tester here no matter how much you, or the manufacturer, doesn't like it. It's simply not feasible to build thousands of test vehicles to get a representative number of transmission builds with their little variances and test software that has myriads of inputs and outputs with thousands of different drivers before releasing it. It goes through testing--quite a lot, but you can't scale it like that to see how it needs to be tweaked without much more input. Every mass-market car manufacturer would go out of business trying to do that because you wouldn't be able to afford the vehicles.
Blah, blah, blah, blah..blah. You have an excuse for everything, don't you Peter. Very defensive if you ask me.



My fiance just picked up a brand new 2014 BMW 328i automatic with X-Drive (and the floppy steering paddles)...the transmission in it shifts like a pro...like my two Xterra's did, and my Toyota pickup...hell, the 2013 Wrangler I rented on Martha's Vineyard this October, and even the Chrysler 200 loaners I received when my new 2014 GC was in the shop shifted better.

So I don't care about your lame excuses for Chrysler's half-ass work. You only sound like one of their lap dogs to me.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:47 AM
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Re: People only come here to complain

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Originally Posted by GCLimited View Post
Blah, blah, blah, blah..blah. You have an excuse for everything, don't you Peter. Very defensive if you ask me.
It's called being rational. It's also called being informed about The Way The World Works(tm). Something you seem woefully unadapted to.

Quote:
My fiance just picked up a brand new 2014 BMW 328i automatic with X-Drive (and the floppy steering paddles)...the transmission in it shifts like a pro...like my two Xterra's did, and my Toyota pickup...hell, the 2013 Wrangler I rented on Martha's Vineyard this October, and even the Chrysler 200 loaners I received when my new 2014 GC was in the shop shifted better.
Hmm. And what's the difference here? Wait for it...come on...think about it. No, it's not that it's BMW, a foreign brand, or anything like that. You can do it...I mentioned it just recently...

Oh hell, maybe you can't. So, I'll spell it out:

BMW 328i -- same transmission for more than one model year. BMW has had similar complaints about transmission shift quality when introducing new transmissions on a first-year basis. Generally, software updates have corrected this (unless you had an X5 in the mid-to-late 2000s. Then they just had transmissions that died right out of warranty.

Don't know your model years for the Xterra and Toyota pickup, but I'm willing to bet they were not first year transmission releases either.

Wrangler: Definitely not a first-year transmission release.

Chrysler 200: Using the 6-speed which has been around a bit. It had some shift quality concerns when first released (but not as many as it was based off an existing design).

Quote:
So I don't care about your lame excuses for Chrysler's half-ass work. You only sound like one of their lap dogs to me.
See, here's why you, and people like you, frustrate me so much. You're basically the epitome of the Uninformed Consumer(tm). You strike me as the "low information" type which basically has two parameters. Its pretty, shiny, powerful, what have you...and it costs X amount so that means its perfect. So you set your expectations accordingly, and when The Way The World Works(tm) interferes with your low information stance, you basically become The Toxic Avenger, spouting off on all sorts of subjects you basically have no idea about, certain in your righteousness that all the engineers must be stupid...etc...etc...etc.

So here's the difference between you and I from a consumer level. I like to be informed. I like to learn, and I like to know how things work. When making a major purchase, this is especially important. I use this knowledge to set proper expectations so I don't become filled with toxic misguided expectations. Hell, it's not healthy to be that way.

So, in order that you might see my rationale, I'll lay it out, using the purchase of my Grand Cherokee as an example.

1) Over the years I've taken in some knowledge about how products are made, what they go through, and the tradeoffs involved. I understand, that complex mass-produced manufactured products cannot be tested to infinity without adding large amounts of cost. I understand adding cost like that shrinks market. I also understand that for every feature, there's a complex dance associated in order to make that feature work--regardless of how silly it may seem. Because of this, I also understand that it is nearly impossible to test a product such as a vehicle to such a degree that they exit the door perfectly, and please everyone from the start without pushing the price up into an ever shrinking market segment. This is especially true of complex software-controlled devices. So, I understand that first priority will be mechanical longevity and operation, second proper software operation (because that can be fixed at any time). I also understand that no complex product will be perfect. They woudn't need warranties if perfection was attainable.

2) With this knowledge, I research what I'm interested in. With the Jeep, I found a good combination of features vs price. Also, I understand what "mass produced" means, and know I'm getting a LOT features crammed into this price point.

3) I look at overall company quality ratings. Jeep sits right near the average for the industry in general, so I weigh that against the features of the vehicle. I know from these numbers that I may have a few more problems on average than say a Lexus so I factor that in. HOWEVER, I also realize that if you look at the numbers...while Lexus has fewer problems per 100 vehicles than Jeep, the numbers aren't THAT different. In fact, they aren't supremely different among all the manufacturers because as a whole, the entire industry is within a range defined by the complexity of their products, not necessarily by their actual process.

4) I then look at several other important factors. The first one is...what CHANGES took place on this model I'm interested in vs. previous ones? In the case of the 2014 JGC, a whole new electrical architecture, new software, and 2 brand new transmissions to the model. I looked at that because of my knowledge of The Way Things Work(tm) and having been around for a while, I understand that the introduction of significant operational changes from ANY manufacturer will have hiccups. It will. That's just what happens. I might weigh this factor a bit less on a price point over 100k as those are going to be low-volume and therefore able to be tested out for much longer because of a different business model, but...even then I would weigh it because you can't test every situation and until you have real miles with many different drivers you have a lot of uncertainty.

5) So, my expectation is now mostly set. If I buy this vehicle, I can expect around industry average reliability, BUT, for a bit in the beginning I can expect a few bugs that need to be worked out on the software side during this first year or so. I can also expect the transmission to be a little buggy as it is (1) an eight speed first introduction for the model and (2) has not had a lot of road time in multiple settings among a lot of users (emphasis on the latter part). I also expect that, because this is also software, this can and will be corrected over time. Recent Chrysler transmissions are not known for hardware failures in general, and one is directly from ZF who has been building them for a while so I'm not too concerned about them mechanically. But software...yes, I expect some issues given the myriad of parameters that need to be dealt wtih for each individual model on such types of transmissions. They're all different in many ways.

So now I'm at my decision point. My expectations are properly set. I bought, not expecting perfection but expecting a few bumps in the road. I expected reasonable mechanical reliability but that perhaps I'd have to endure a few bugs and annoyances as the electrical and software side got worked out. I went into this with this knowledge up front. Proper expectations based on how the world works. My expectations now are:

* There will be a few bugs, and there have been
* Chrysler will work them out by issuing updates, and they have been
* Things will get better
* The vehicle offers an attractive price point for the features and with the promise of the above, will be ironed into what I want.

Now, if I were unwilling to put up with these things, didn't want the inconvenience, and if that possibility weighed too heavily vs what I would be getting and so forth, I would have purchased something else which was a carryover and hadn't changed anything, or I would have waited untiil 2015 or so for this model.

There...proper expectations. Yours...not so much. You've even said on here that these problems didn't or weren't known about when you bought the vehicle. No...they weren't. But if you notice above, because of having just a TAD bit of knowledge about how things operate in the real world, I could ascertain what might be expected and set my own expectations without having to look into the future.

It's not about being a "lap dog" as you put it. It's about being intelligent about what I'm purchasing and having intelligent expectations about it.

The people I DO understand and sympathize with are:

1) Those with bad dealers that are being treated improperly (and who are not acting like asses from the beginning to the dealer)
2) Those who have had absolutely disastrous outcomes. I've seen only a few of those, and I see them with other manufacturers too
3) Those who are having problems, but honestly trying to work through them and that had an expectation that such things could occur given all the stuff mentioned above. Many are simply asking if this is a known issue or if theirs is a one-off. Many just want updates on what is happening with their issue. I myself have asked a few things about issues with the vehicle simply to see what category it might be in.

Where I would get angry is if Chrysler wasn't releasing updates and fixes as that would go against my expectations. But, they are.

And with this, I'm done arguing about this. Its become pointless as I don't really see you wising up anytime soon or being anything but toxic to anyone who will listen.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:21 PM
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Re: People only come here to complain

^

You can attempt to insult my intelligence or rationalize the issues I've had with my Jeep or the crappy dealership I bought it at all you want Peter, the fact is I've NEVER had so many issues buying a new vehicle before...EVER, and I've bought quite a few. And I read MANY posts on this site from others who have had the same issues. No matter how I attempt to explain to you that just about every other vehicle I've bought (many less expensive than the GC) has been more reliable, it's just not good enough for you, and you just keep trying to explain away with bullshit...even when the contrary is presented to you. I don't care if some of the vehicles I've bought in the past weren't 1st year...I still feel if Chrysler had done a better job testing the 2014 GC before releasing it, there wouldn't have been as many issues as people have with it.

My main expectation for this +$40,000 vehicle was for it to be reliable, and so far it has not lived up to that expectation...and NOTHING you say can change that. To call my legitimate complaints about my vehicle "Toxic" is just plain asinine. And just to be clear...my goal here is not to start trouble, but to alert others of my vehicle's troubles, look for trends, and hopefully learn how to get them fixed ASAP. If the truth hurts you, don't read my posts.

So please just stop...you only sound like an ass-kissing spokesmen for Chrysler to me.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:19 PM
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Re: People only come here to complain

Look, this has escalated far more than it should have. I'm not a spokesperson for anyone but myself -- I simply have a different viewpoint. I'm sorry you've never had so many problems with a vehicle before. Well, actually I'm not sorry...that means you've had pretty good luck. I, on the other hand, have had much greater problems with a new vehicle before -- in two cases actually. A BMW and an Infiniti. FAR greater problems. As in, engine replaced twice in one case and no end of steering and electrical issues in the other.

On the other hand, I've had a few issues (which I expected) with the GC, but nothing catastrophic and they've been getting progressively better. It's perspective--I don't buy vehicles expecting them to be perfect. And I don't go around insulting the engineers that design them, which I felt you were doing over issues that weren't as simple as you claimed them to be. That was around where I lost civility in this discussion as it was uncalled for. You targeted some people (some I actually know--and indirectly it was felt by myself as well) who are anything but incompetent or "idiots". That's when I started pointing out where you weren't the smartest guy in the room. That's all.

As for why I've criticized your complaints, its because of the above, and...I simply don't understand why you bought a vehicle that was in it's first months after some pretty major changes across multiple systems and expected it to be rock-solid reliable. In that first year, when it's a tried and true industry joke to avoid "first year models" if you're not up for trips to the dealership. Across all brands even. You're a "first adopter" in that case--and this axiom applies in multiple markets. Computer software, hardware, TVs, etc. The axiom states that because of the way markets work, first adopters are always the unlabeled beta testers. They get the cool stuff first as a reward, but...they are beta testers in many ways. Surely you know this. I also don't understand why, if rock-solid reliability was your primary requirement, you didn't buy a much simpler vehicle (as you've done in the past like you mentioned). Complexity always lowers reliability. More things to go wrong means more things will go wrong.

Anyway, that's why I don't quite understand where you're coming from here. I don't understand the indignation (its not the complaint itself...the indignation and insulting demeanor you put forth when you are contradicted is what is odd to me) when your buying choices, based on the above, were in direct conflict with your primary requirement. Don't you hold a bit of responsibility there yourself? I'm really not saying that one shouldn't want reliability out of their vehicle, but...if you choose to be a (1) a first adopter in almost any product and (2) buy the more complicated product, together, are you not kind of stacking the odds against yourself?

As for your dealer issues--those I understand (as I even put in my other post). There are some really crappy ones--that is for sure. There are also decent ones that give people crappy responses when they are being asses to them. Which one is your case, nor will I assume it's the latter as that would be unfair.

In any case, I apologize for being insulting--I was responding to an insult to others in kind and should have kept it civil. I don't agree with your standpoint at all, but there isn't any reason this needs to become overly hostile.
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