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  #37  
Old 04-06-2011, 06:59 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Originally Posted by netcoolery View Post
Actually, both can kill you. It just takes a lower concentration of CO. I had once thought that CO2 was harmless (greenhouse gas issues aside) because indeed we do breathe it out - but I was quite wrong.

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_poisoning

Even more amazing is when a lake eruption kills hundreds of people at once: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limnic_eruption
CO2 retension can kill you but it's generally due to build up of one's own CO2 from poor lung function. Too much O2 is also harmful but we are really talking albout toxic gases and CO is the main culprit here.
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  #38  
Old 04-06-2011, 08:32 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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SOOOOO....yes, bpmcgee...modern vehicle emit little CO but ONLY (note ONLY!!!) if there is a an adequate supply of oxygen....in a closed garage, the oxygen is quickly used up and CO results instead of CO2.
That's ridiculous. A shortage of oxygen atoms extreme enough to only allow CO to form instead of CO2 would choke the engine down to the point where it won't even run. You need a very specific ratio of air to fuel mixture to get an internal combustion engine to run, and that ratio changes as the amount of oxygen in the air changes, and even modern computer controlled fuel injection systems aren't designed to keep an engine running in such an oxygen deprived environment. Even at the top of the rocky mountains where the air is way thinner than it is at sea level, and therefore much less oxygen is available, gasoline engines with catalytic converters still produce thousands of times as much CO2 as CO.
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  #39  
Old 04-06-2011, 08:42 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Originally Posted by Red G8R View Post
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Carbon monoxide (CO) from a car will kill you if exposed long enough. We all exhale carbon dioxide (CO2) and so CO2 not the problem.

Red,

I think I have pretty good evidence to back up my point of view. The below link is from the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology. They studied two suicides by car exhaust, and found that the deaths were NOT caused by CO poisoning. In fact, the CO output of the engine they tested was only 71 ppm, enough to cause headaches after several hours, but not death, and certainly not in 15 minutes. These people died of suffocation due to a buildup of carbon DIOXIDE.

All the reports that I read about in which an autopsy confirms CO as the cause of death involve cars trapped in heavy snow storms, and their exhaust being blocked. A circumstance certainly not like a warm, dry garage.

http://www.rodoh.us/arts/arts1/schmunk/schmunk2002.pdf
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  #40  
Old 04-06-2011, 11:58 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Originally Posted by Red G8R View Post
CO2 retension can kill you but it's generally due to build up of one's own CO2 from poor lung function. Too much O2 is also harmful but we are really talking albout toxic gases and CO is the main culprit here.
Yes, believe it or not, oxygen becomes poisonous somewhere above 2 atmospheres! When the Italian military was trying to develop SCUBA, they initially tried cylinders of pure oxygen. Divers would go down about 40ft below sea level and mysteriously die!

They quickly figured out that if they use compressed air (with the usual 21% oxygen), they could go much deeper safely - but still that issue means that professional divers who dive below the sport limit of 130ft need to use a lower percentage of oxygen when they are deep to avoid the partial pressure getting over 2 atmospheres.
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  #41  
Old 04-06-2011, 05:19 PM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

Oh, I'm not getting involved in this discussion!
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  #42  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:01 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Originally Posted by netcoolery View Post
Yes, believe it or not, oxygen becomes poisonous somewhere above 2 atmospheres! When the Italian military was trying to develop SCUBA, they initially tried cylinders of pure oxygen. Divers would go down about 40ft below sea level and mysteriously die!

They quickly figured out that if they use compressed air (with the usual 21% oxygen), they could go much deeper safely - but still that issue means that professional divers who dive below the sport limit of 130ft need to use a lower percentage of oxygen when they are deep to avoid the partial pressure getting over 2 atmospheres.
Really deep divers use oxygen and helium combined, as standard atmospheric air is mostly nitrogen, and the longer you stay at deeper depths, the more susceptible you are to the bends, which is when nitrogen bubbles form in your blood due to the decrease in pressure when you come back up.
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  #43  
Old 04-07-2011, 10:52 PM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Originally Posted by Nouveau Redneck View Post
That's ridiculous. A shortage of oxygen atoms extreme enough to only allow CO to form instead of CO2 would choke the engine down to the point where it won't even run. You need a very specific ratio of air to fuel mixture to get an internal combustion engine to run, and that ratio changes as the amount of oxygen in the air changes, and even modern computer controlled fuel injection systems aren't designed to keep an engine running in such an oxygen deprived environment. Even at the top of the rocky mountains where the air is way thinner than it is at sea level, and therefore much less oxygen is available, gasoline engines with catalytic converters still produce thousands of times as much CO2 as CO.
Sorry, but you are wrong. It isn't the COMPLETE LACK of oxygen, it is INSUFFICIENT oxygen for the level of combustion. Any burning will produce varying levels of CO....but in an enclosed environment such as a environment such as a newer constructed tight garage, the vehicle could begin to emit harmful levels of CO fairly quickly.

And yes....it happens in regular non-snowy weather too even with an entire apartment or house of air available...see that article. It isn't like those young guys (physically fit and all) were drunk and passed out first....moreover they hadn't even eaten their food from McD's yet. Increasing levels of CO won't kill you immediately...and if you are awake you probably will get a headache first and get sleepy....those are warning signs. But a lot of people that were already asleep never realized anything is wrong as there is nothing to wake them up....absent a hero dog.....and they just die in their sleep.

The danger is real but the probability is low of it being an issue for most.

Oh, and the Captain Obvious suggestion of opening the garage door is silly...we were talking about not realizing the remote start was activated so you wouldn't know you needed to open the garage door.

Lastly, the technical cause of death at the cellular level that the CO2 built up should be because the oxygen level was low...blocked by the CO binding more strongly than oxygen in the hemoglobin binding site......

When it comes to car mechanics I'll defer to others on many things, but when it comes to biology/physiology/cell bio I know what I am talking about......
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  #44  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:58 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Originally Posted by Dan JGC View Post

Oh, and the Captain Obvious suggestion of opening the garage door is silly...we were talking about not realizing the remote start was activated so you wouldn't know you needed to open the garage door.
If we're being Captain Obvious and silly, you're being Silly Captain Obtuse. The remote start only runs for 15 minutes. So let's say that you walk into the garage right after it shut off (never mind that you must have either turned off the horn alert at remote start or never heard it). Now, you also must have a rather small garage for CO concentrations to be significant enough to be an issue. Then you must be intending to be in the garage for an extended time (with the vehicle occupying most of the room, mind you); as we've stated and you know- one whiff won't kill you. Finally, you also have to not smell the exhaust- while CO is odorless, the rest of the exhaust has some smell to it, so you're ignoring that.

Dude, you're freaking out over nothing. NOTHING. You'd be talking a cavalcade of FAIL to get to the point where you're inhaling much CO at all from the remote start. All of which can be avoided simply by putting the vehicle key fobs up on a hook so the kids can't reach them and they won't hit anything in your pocket.
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  #45  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:17 AM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

IMHO the OP should take this discussion over to the Prius board where ChickenLittlesq fear mongering like this is appreciated! AlBore might even give you a gold star for it....

For God's sake open the garage door and let the rest of us go back to playing with our Jeeps! Sheesh!
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  #46  
Old 04-11-2011, 01:42 PM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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Sorry, but you are wrong. It isn't the COMPLETE LACK of oxygen, it is INSUFFICIENT oxygen for the level of combustion. Any burning will produce varying levels of CO....but in an enclosed environment such as a environment such as a newer constructed tight garage, the vehicle could begin to emit harmful levels of CO fairly quickly.
I did not say anything about a complete lack of oxygen. I said an amount of oxygen low enough to cause the engine and catalytic converter to not be able to create CO2 and only allow it to create CO.

These modern vehicles have multiple O2 sensors, both before and after the catalytic converter, and the computer will continue to lean down the amount of fuel being delivered if the amount of CO in the exhaust begins to rise above acceptable limits, and eventually the leaning down of the incoming fuel will shut the engine down.
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  #47  
Old 04-11-2011, 01:51 PM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

You WK2 guys are a special bunch.

Im not throwing my opinion in this thread, because it seems useless.

But...........why don't you WK2 guys who are complaining make yourself useful to the forum? Enough with these nonsense threads. Its ridiculous and its time some of you actually DO something with your Jeeps.

This is an enthusiast car club, if you came here to bitch about useless information that WE PEOPLE already know about command starts, then its time to hit the bricks.

Our moderators put their hard money into keeping this site running for a reason, I would hate to see that the only point of this site is because several WK2 owners came to cry about (cup holders, windshield wipers, command starts, floor mats, etc etc.)

Enough is enough guys, make yourself useful on the forum, or stay off of it.
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  #48  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:02 PM
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Re: Remote Start Issue - I think it is dangerous?

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