Going to do the following dyno tests, all on the same friggin day. Which means I'll being putting my 2014 GC back to stock for the following tests below.
Test 1: Baseline with stk. air box and panel filter w/93 octane gasoline.
Test 2: If anyone has an aftermarket panel filter they would like for me to test, I'll split the shipping cost with you. If not, I'll install my K&N CAI kit and test that.
Test 7: Test the Pedal Commander on the dyno to see if 0-60 MPH times change with their device. Not 100% if I can do this or not.
If anyone has any ideas on other tests or comments feel free to ask.
Thanks for reading and hopefully I can get this catch can soon and get these tests completed.
Why a Catch Can?
Because piston rings do not create a perfect seal. If they did the pistons would not be able to move up and down. Because there is a tiny gap between the cylinders walls and the pistons, a little bit of pressure is able to escape into the valve cover area and crankcase.
The OEM does a great job of meeting emission standards and removing the harmful contaminants, but the unintended consequences is oil is drawn into the intake charge which is bad if you plan on making the most power possible. For an engine to produce the maximum amount of energy in the combustion chamber you want air & fuel only. Any amount of oil in this A/F mixture will hamper the explosion resulting in less energy released, detonation, and carbon buildup. Trapping and removing this oil before it gets into the combustion chamber is the only solution I know of to maintaining the maximum efficiency inside your engine. A correctly designed and installed Oil Catch Can solves this problem.
In closing, here are the main problems you'll have if you don't install a properly designed and installed Catch Can.
• Reduced octane of the air/fuel mixture, which can cause detonation and the ECM (Engine Control Module) to retard timing, thereby reducing engine power.
• Excessive carbon build-up on valves, piston crowns, combustion chambers and spark plugs. This also increases the chance of detonation and power loss.
• Increased emissions & possible contamination of catalytic converters and oxygen sensors
EPA hasn't allowed venting to the atmosphere for some years now. I've installed an external crankcase breather on my Harley to keep all that crap out of my combustion chamber.
Did you re-tune after the catback install or just tested with it on/off? I know that generally aftermarket catbacks are more about sound that anything else theses days though.
I'd imagine LT headers might actually make a difference.
There is no reason to re-tune if what you're removing is a restriction but you have a limit. The stk. processor or EMS (Engine management system) has the ability to accommodate for small increases in airflow.
No we did not re-tune and the same applies for when we replaced the stk. air box with a K&N CAI. No re-tune and we saw an immediate increase in power due to more airflow going thru the intake. When you get to larger increases in air flow like a supercharger or cylinder heads, etc. a tune would be needed because the airflow increase would be outside the parameters where the EMS can adjust fueling.
Yes, long tube headers should show an increase in power due to the long tube design but I can't seem to find any data on a Jeep 5.7L what those HP increases would be. The question comes done to how much of a power increase would you need to see to warrant the cost of buying and installing long tube headers.
Example: Purchase long tube for approx. $1600. Have them professionally installed $800 to $1000. Total investment is $2600 and lets say you saw 15awhp on the dyno. Would 15-20awhp be worth the $2600 investment?
In my opinion, if I spent $2600 I would like to see 25-30awhp on the dyno.
Great questions and ideas, thank you
Michael Plummer
Great question and I don't remember if it was 5th or 6th gear. I'll call the shop and see what gear it was.
I'm only doing this test because I think my knock sensors were pulling timing. Great rid of the knock and I should see more power. And for once and for all, end the debate on whether a CAI kit adds HP (I know it does).
American Racing Headers.
I contacted American Racing Headers on doing a back to back testing on their long tube headers for the WK2 2014 Jeep. They wanted contact information for companies I use to work with in the industry and I forwarded that information to them. Those companies were, Ford Racing, Ford Electronics, Pro-M Racing, ATI ProCharger and Snow Performance. Hopefully something can be worked out to try these LT headers, if not someone is going to have to buy and test these things.
I've looked at those headers, and they're on my list of things to consider. I have a couple of concerns:
- I don't want to lose ANY ground clearance.
- It would also be contingent on being able to install these in my driveway. I've done my GTO and that was a real bear, especially with having to drop the steering rack and go in through the bottom, but it wasn't impossible.
Q) What input does the ECM use to pull timing? Is that strictly a function of coolant temp?
A) A knock sensor is a piezoelectric device that contains a piezoelectric sensing crystal and a resister. This crystal creates a small amount of voltage when shaken. The ECM uses this signal to alter the ignition timing to prevent detonation. It will compare this information with its preset tables to identify a valid knock or ping. If a ping is sensed, it will retard the ignition timing and it has no relation to ECT (Engine Coolant Temperatures)
Q) Are you thinking that the colder T stat will resolve that issue?
A) First of all, I don't believe in lower thermostats. My 94 Mustang makes almost 900rwhp with a stk. thermostat. Personally, I don't think 10-15 degrees of engine coolant temperatures is going to lower combustion chamber temperatures by 10-15 degrees. But I'm listening to others who have more experience with this type of vehicle than I do. Their logic is this: If the vehicle is able to run cooler engine coolant temperatures, this will help in keeping the combustion chamber temperatures cooler and will aid in less knock/detonation.
Q) I would be curious to see with ram air (while driving) what the coolant temps are. WOT pulls on a dyno, as you have experienced, is hard on the vehicle, no matter the size of fan in front of the vehicle (you'll need a full flow chamber to properly replicate driving air flow).
A) Agreed.
Q) Logging a few WOT runs on the road with air moving across the cooling package (coolant temp, timing, knock sensor) to see if we can correlate that to what you log on the rollers.
A) Interesting but I need to think about it a little more.
Q) IE, if the cooler t stat buys more HP on the road...or the current T stat is sufficient.
A) My gut feeling tells me the lower thermostat won't make a difference.
I emailed Billet Technology on the status of my Catch Can order and got the following reply. " Thank you for your business and patiences, your order is currently at anodize pending to come back once back all we have to do is assemble the catch can it self and provide you with all that you will need. Chances are you'll see an delivery date of end of the year into the new year the latest just a matter of what comes back from anodize........"
I scheduled my dyno appointment for Dec 21, 2016. Based on the email response from Billet Technology my Catch Can won't be here in time. So I called Matt at Moe's Performance and bought another Catch Can. It should arrive at my door by Tuesday, December 13th, 2016. This keeps me on schedule.
AMERICAN RACING HEADERS: Left a message that I was looking for an update on my proposal. Waiting on a return call.
CHANGES TO DYNO TESTING:
1) Going to install Catch Can ASAP to help clean up the oil residue inside the combustion chambers.
2) Going to use VP Racing fuel 100 octane. It has the same stoich value as 93 octane so no changes to the tune will be needed.
Definitely interested to see the results here as well. I would be pretty bummed if you didn't pick up HP after a throttle body, 103 octane (may need a custom tune for that high octane? not sure), and CAI.
Hoping you get at least 20-30HP with all that and hope it went well today!
Stoichiometric Ratio (Stoich) for pure 93 octane is 14.7. Today's gasolines have different Stoich values due to how much Ethanol is actually in it. So we can have a Stoich values between 14.1 to 14.3 for pump gasoline providing the alcohol content is close to 10%.
MS103 unleaded has a Stoich value of 14.39 so I should be okay. But I believe the Jeep's ECU is in Open Loop at WOT, so I'll keep an eye on A/F ratios during the dyno runs. The reason for the MS103 is to see if I can make a full WOT run with no knock. No knock means no detonation and more total timing which should equal to more HP.
Cold Air Intake: Looking forward to proving that a CAI on a larger engine does make a difference. More air in, the engine has to compensate with more fuel and the end result would be more HP. The ECU can accommodate for better running engines and worse running engines. If you air filter was dirty as heck and you get less air flow into your engine does anyone have to get a tune? Nope and the same applies here providing the adjustment needed by the ECU is within it's limits to do so. If not, then a tune is needed. Hence the reason when you install a supercharger (that's a lot of air) you'll need a tune because it's outside the limits of the ECU. Plus, you'll need other associated parts.
Throttle Body: Less turbulence air flow, increased velocity and volume. Keep those goals in mind and hopefully the throttle body still flows more than enough air into the intake manifold to keep up to the demands of the combustion chambers then you should pickup some HP. How much??? Guess I'll find out. The same applies here no tune should be needed but we'll see.
On a personal note: My Jeep made 285awhp when stock. After the mods it made 304awhp. Now that my Jeep is back to stock, I can NOT tell the difference between 19-20awhp less at WOT.
Surprised no one caught "MY MISTAKE" the last time I was at the dyno but I'll explain later.
Interested to see the results of the canned vs hemi fever tunes.
We have a Durango R/T in the family. It put down 268hp SAE stock. And this was on a dyno that is properly calibrated. The 5.7 in the Durango or GC should be between 260 and 270whp stock. (known baseline figures).
If you post numbers higher then you will likely be showing STD numbers which are not accurate (although dyno's do vary). I'm interested to see also what your dyno operator chooses to use (SAE vs STD).
Should always be in SAE with Smoothing Factor 5. Otherwise its B.S pretty much.
After with your best tune and intake plus TB you should see 285-295 IMO. Good for a mid to high 14 1/4 mile @ 92-93mph.
Also would be very interested to see a closed hood dyno with the intake. We saw a loss of 6hp with heat soak
DiabloSport: My DiabloSport tuner would hang-up every time we tried to upload a tune (Diablo or HemiFever). I spent over 2.5 hours with Diablo on the phone emailing logs, try this and try that but in the end no dyno numbers from either Diablo or HemiFever. Have to send handheld back to Diablo.
180 Thermostat: Let me put this mod in the graveyard once and for all. Cooler thermostats do not make more power and they DON'T cool down combustion chamber temperatures. One of your coolant's main purpose is to cool your block and cylinder heads so they don't warp or melt themselves to the ground. The only thing that can cool combustion chamber temperatures are your A/F ratio, spark plugs, types of gasoline or anything injected in your engine like Water/Methanol or Nitrous. Never installed 180 degree thermostat and I'll be sending it back.
Mustang Dyno: I have no idea if the dyno is properly calibrated and I don't know how you find that information out anyways. As far as STD and SAE Correction factors go. You can use STD providing all the testing is done on the same day with the same conditions. SAE is usually preferred because it corrects to a standard that can be compared to others basically anywhere. Most people like STD because in most cases it will read higher. Today all my dyno numbers are using the SAE correction factor. Smoothing is 15.
Dyno runs w/hood open vs. closed: With associated fans and blowers and your hood open you are trying to maximize airflow into the engine and thru your radiator. One huge disadvantage making dyno runs is you're not going to duplicate the airflow on the dyno you would get rolling down the street at 40 to 90+MPH. So naturally with your hood closed, you get less airflow, higher engine compartment temps and the end result would be less HP.
All tunes and dyno runs below are on the STOCK TUNE in 4th gear and on 93 octane STK Baseline(2 pulls): Todays best starting baseline 279 and 295 SAE
K&N CAI best pull: Wait for it.................................292 and 310 SAE. That looks like a 12-13 awhp and 15 awtq gains to me. No tuning was needed, just bolt it on and go VRROOM. Believe the HYPE on this engine (5.7L), a properly engineered CAI will make more power than the stk. air intake system.
Diablo and HemiFever tunes: HANDHELD DEVICE DEFECTIVE NO DATA
Finally got the stock tune reloaded and we decide to make a few passes to see if we could match our dyno numbers before the problems with the handheld tuner started. BEFORE 292 and 310 and AFTER 289.9 and 307.7 SAE. New baseline moving forward is now 289.9 and 307.7.
Throttle Body (5 pulls):
Run 1: 290.5 and 308.4 SAE Run 2: 291.2 and 308.5 SAE (Best pull HP & TQ)
Run 3: 291.8 and 305.1 SAE
Don't know what to say. We have 1.1 and 0.8 increase in HP and TQ over the new baseline but down some over the original baseline of 292 and 310. More on this later and why dyno numbers may not matter when it concerns the throttle body.
103 Unleaded Race gas (6 pulls): Basically no change in either HP or TQ. The engine still shows a little bit on knock on the stk. tune (datalog) but the knock sensors are probably picking up other noises because it can't be knock with that octane being used.
I'll post pictures, videos and data logs later.......I'm F'in TIRED.
That's too bad that the Diablosport didn't want to work, it happened to me one time also, it's was very frustrating to have it turn off every time I tried to upload a tune but after I upgraded it on my computer it finally uploaded my tunes. Try to upgrade it on your computer before you try to upload a tune next time.
Updated unit 2 days before dyno session and that might of had something to do with it. Diablo checked the log file and saw I did in fact had the unit upgraded. Even though I was disappointed with the problems I was having, the customer service rep (Kenny) at Diablo was very professional and knowledgeable and I appreciate all his help. https://youtube.com/watch?v=K-sjyKqiWhA
New Baseline before Throttle Body. We decided we should establish a new baseline because of the issues we had uploading and downloading tunes. Unit went into "Recovery" mode many times.
Stk. Throttle Body in my hand and new Throttle Body getting installed
FYI,
We looked as far as we could inside the intake with our eyes and with the Milwaukee inspection camera and from our view we did not see any oil build-up. If we removed the intake that might of been a different story but not going to remove it unless I have to.
Ported 87mm throttle body dyno pulls. We made a total of 5 dyno pulls but did not record the last two runs because the results were more or less the same.
Second time pitting these two against one another but the K&N CAI does in fact pickup power on my 2014 JGC 5.7L. No tuning is needed to take advantage of the increased airflow, just bolt it on and go.
Joe,
The dyno run with the stk. air intake system was with the hood open and we did the same for the K&N CAI, seemed like a fair apples to apples comparison. If you want a closed hood test, a run down the quarter mile dragstrip can be done but 10-12awhp and 15awtq is not going to show a huge difference in ETs.
The stk. air filter and resonator (long black plastic piece) are restrictive. The resonator with all the obstacles protruding into the air path is creating a lot of turbulence to cancel out noise. But the net effect is less velocity and air flow going into the engine. Not sure why people can't understand that?
Personally, I thought there would be more concerns over the throttle body.
Thanks
Michael Plummer
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