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  #13  
Old 04-07-2012, 12:59 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

Now that the cost of ethanol and the construction of new ethanol plants is no longer being highly subsidized by the Federal and many State governments, the use of ethanol will have to stand on it's own merits.

That is why E85 sales have dropped significantly, and construction starts of new and planned ethanol plants has ground to a near halt.

Why anyone would pay nearly the same per gallon for E85 and get 20-25% less mpg is beyond understanding.

If you want to waste your money, go ahead. I don't plan to race my GC.

If you really want to help the environment, sell your Jeep and buy a hybrid or electric car...or better yet - a bicycle.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:32 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

Yep Slightly lower energy content has little to do with HP. Most premium dino fuels have less energy than regular gas too. Just throw more fuel in and higher octane of e85 allows ecu to advance timing more than regular fuel. If you don't have compression to take advantage of higher octane then using higher octane won't help much but pentastar has just enough where ecu can take advantage of higher octane.


http://horsepowercalculators.net/e85...e85-calculator
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:44 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

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Originally Posted by Justal13 View Post
Now that the cost of ethanol and the construction of new ethanol plants is no longer being highly subsidized by the Federal and many State governments, the use of ethanol will have to stand on it's own merits.

That is why E85 sales have dropped significantly, and construction starts of new and planned ethanol plants has ground to a near halt.

Why anyone would pay nearly the same per gallon for E85 and get 20-25% less mpg is beyond understanding.

If you want to waste your money, go ahead. I don't plan to race my GC.

If you really want to help the environment, sell your Jeep and buy a hybrid or electric car...or better yet - a bicycle.
Where you getting your data? It's wrong. Ethonol sales are increasing production is increasing as well. As long as regular stays over $4 bio fuel can be affordable alternative. Your offering same arguments I heard 5 years ago and production has skyrocketed. We will see more and more ethanol burners. Once more stations are in place then look for cars even better optimized for E85.

If gas prices drop significantly ethonol will struggle for sure but industry has momentum and they are making improvements in production methods to reduce costs. Many plants now use corn cobs without kernels. So farmers can still make money for grain. I think people underestimate American innovation. We have some very smart people working in these plants all across the US. Federal subsidies got industry launched. Plenty of momentum now. My area has seen growth of e85 stations so it's not just me buying e85. Lol! Also put yourself in position of principle owner of a bio plant. You think you would just sit around and not improve operations to become more cost effective? Granted some poorly managed plants will close but well managed sites will overcome issues. There are plans for ethanol pipelines from Midwest to larger populations in the works. There's a reason big oil is jumping into bio fuels. They know they have a real competitor now.

I can't tow my ethanol buring race car with a hybrid or a bike. Lol! Indy racing league has converted to all ethanol race cars recently too!
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:55 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

E85 is such a waste of water
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:54 PM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

"Waste of water...."

1. So is beef. Uh, that is: Growing the corn to feed to the steers. Now if we all became vegetarians, then think of the water we would save. Many of these thirsty crops (like corn) are still being subsidized.

2. So are dams. In the West, the lakes behind these dams are huge evaporation ponds They are essentially "banks" for the government, who makes money on hydro-electric power, recreational and sport fishing.

If we built towns and cites where water was available, instead of the deserts of the Southwest (LV, LA, PHX...etc), think of the water we would save.


Back on topic (sort of):

Let's face it, you buy a new car and your "carbon footprint" is huge....regardless of the fuel.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:14 PM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

Unsubscribed, this is a simple topic that doesn't need to turn into a sword fighting contest.....
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:05 PM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer440 View Post
"Waste of water...."

1. So is beef. Uh, that is: Growing the corn to feed to the steers. Now if we all became vegetarians, then think of the water we would save. Many of these thirsty crops (like corn) are still being subsidized.

2. So are dams. In the West, the lakes behind these dams are huge evaporation ponds They are essentially "banks" for the government, who makes money on hydro-electric power, recreational and sport fishing.

If we built towns and cites where water was available, instead of the deserts of the Southwest (LV, LA, PHX...etc), think of the water we would save.


Back on topic (sort of):

Let's face it, you buy a new car and your "carbon footprint" is huge....regardless of the fuel.
Straw man
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  #20  
Old 04-09-2012, 12:03 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

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Originally Posted by bmrisko View Post
There is a reason E85 is cheaper than non-E85...it produces less MPG. Just the nature of the beast.

I'd never run that crap through my engine...10% ethanol is bad enough.
I agree. Ethanol is the bane of the car community forced upon us by greenie nuts.

It screws with seals and is very corrosive to many types of rubbers and plastics. My BMW burned out 5 fuel pumps due to this crap.

It breaks down rapidly and you can't let it sit in your tank for any length of time like you can with gas. 2 months and your sludged up.

It doesn't put money into farmer's pockets. The farmers actually don't like it and it raises the food prices across the board for food as farmers plant more corn and less other stuff including feed for animals. http://www.alternet.org/environment/52073/

It costs more to make increasing gas prices. If the administration would get off their respective asspect and stop artificaily raising gas prices to force everyone to by chevy volts the world would be a better place. Gas prices have doubled since GW all due to current policy. Big thumbs down to Ethanol crap.

SEBRING - Imagine, they said back in the 1970s, when an Arab oil embargo sent gasoline prices skyrocketing from 25 to 50 cents per gallon.
Imagine. We could grow our own fuel. We could make alcohol from corn and potatoes and soybeans, and our cars could run on it.
It burns cleaner. It's cheaper. It's renewable. It's made in America.
But it turns out, ethanol isn't the miracle fuel it's cracked up to be.
Ethanol Retains Water
"I just purchased a fuel additive made by Sta-Bil to disperse the water that ethanol causes," says Tom Moeller, a Highlands County man who was boating in Georgia last week.
Why does Moeller's boat have water in the fuel tank?
"Alcohol attracts water," said Bobby Willis of Central Florida Yamaha in Lake Placid. "It creates a water problem in your fuel."
Now there's an irony. Ethanol attracts water, and watercraft like WaveRunners and boat motors are constantly in the water.
Yamaha, says Willis, suggests installing a 10-micron filter. "It costs about $50. You can install it yourself. Just cut your fuel line and put it in the line."
"Ten percent ethanol is tolerable for use by WaveRunners," Willis said. "It can get more drastic, especially if you're using E85."
With the exception of BP, all major brand gas stations in Highlands County sell 10 percent ethanol. Only unbranded stations, like 7 Days, Hendricks Corner, An Foodstore and Mystik, sell gasoline without ethanol.
Ethanol Dissolves Plastic
"Ethanol can dissolve some solid materials," says a June 2006 Yamaha advisory to dealers. That includes varnish and rust on steel and corrosion on aluminum tanks. The result is contaminated fuel.
"In some cases, ethanol has been known to dissolve components of the fuel system itself," said Willis.
"Some fuel tanks and fuel lines are made of plastic, and ethanol is eating away at the plastic," said Jimmi Fredricks, service manager at Freedom Marine in Lake Placid. "It turns into a jelly, and when you get to the bottom of the fuel tank, it starts sucking it in."
Larson Boats, which Fredricks sells, recommends using no ethanol at all.
"Fiberglass is the worst. If you have a fiberglass tank, you need to replace the tank. Get it out of there," Fredricks says. Engineers, who have been dealing with the ethanol problem for two years, are now starting to retrofit fuel systems with plastic that can't be dissolved by alcohol.
According to an April 9 story carried on the Dow Jones newswires, a federal class action lawsuit filed in a Los Angeles has charged ExxonMobil, Chevron, BP, Shell and other oil companies with manufacturing and selling ethanol blended gasoline that damages marine fuel tanks, engines and other components.
"The oil companies know this fuel is corrosive, but they're keeping consumers in the dark to pump up their profits," said Brian Kabateck, lead attorney on the case. "The cost to the consumer is thousands of dollars in repairs."
The suit seeks to represent owners of boats with fiberglass tanks who fueled their tanks with ethanol blended gasoline from a California retailer.
Ethanol Dissolves Gum
At the Shell convenience store on Main Street and CR 17 in Avon Park, owner Mohammed Shamim said filters on the pumps must be changed several times a week.
"They're always clogging up," said Shamim.
Ask any painter: alcohol is a good paint stripper. It breaks off old varnish, gums, and resin deposited by years of gasoline sitting around in tanks. Then it turns into sticky goo, plugs filters, sticks up carburetors and fuel injectors, and causes everything from mild drops in performance to complete engine shutdown, says Matthew A. Cohen, writing for teamrsm.com.
"The ethanol found in those states' gasoline supply can cause thousands of dollars in damage to the boats," Cohen says. "Ethanol eventually pulls gums, resins and debris out of the tanks and into the engine."
Ethanol Gets Poor Gas Mileage
Another downside: ethanol is more expensive than gasoline. Since alcohol produces less energy than petroleum gasoline when burned, gas mileage is reduced by 10 to 30 percent, according to Consumer Reports, October 2006.
"To see how E85 ethanol stacks up against gasoline, Consumer Reports put one of its test vehicles, a 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe Flexible-Fuel Vehicle, through an array of fuel economy, acceleration, and emissions tests," said a Consumer Reports article. "Overall fuel economy on the Tahoe dropped from an already low 14 mpg overall to 10. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 mpg to 7."
When Consumer Reports calculated the Tahoe's driving range, it decreased to about 300 miles on a full tank of E85 compared with about 440 miles on gasoline. So, motorists using E85 have to fill up more often.
Joe Rutigliano of Joe's Service Center in Avon Park has seen increased complaints about "check engine" lights. Most involve the car's sensors not being able to measure oxygen correctly, which he says has to do with how rapidly ethanol burns.
The sensor works with a computer that controls the ratio of air to gasoline that's inside the engine. What might be happening, Rutigliano said, is that unburned gasoline is being emitted from the engine because of the sensor malfunction.
"If you start dumping unburned gas, you're talking about damaging the catalytic converter," he said. That's at least a $150 repair job. On some cars, it's $1,100.
This is especially true for cars built in 2003 or earlier, he said.
One customer brought in a Toyota Prius that was averaging 51 mpg. Now it's down to 40 mpg. Rutigliano is convinced it's the ethanol.
But Kelly Payne, who owns a tree care service in Sebring, believes his older car fleet can handle it just fine. He owns a 2005 Sea Pro, a 2006 pickup truck, and operates 1980s and 1990s trucks, all using unleaded gasoline. None had a noticeable drop in fuel efficiency or problems he thought were caused by ethanol.
Good And Bad News
This is from Forbes magazine: "Ethanol, once heralded as the homegrown Nicorette gum of America's oil addiction, is getting a second look from lawmakers ..."
Distilling ethanol is an energy-intensive process that often uses water, electricity generated from coal, another source of greenhouse emissions.
Which leads to an old joke about a farmer who buys land. After the closing, when it's way too late to back out, the seller says to the farmer: "Oh. By the way. You'll need water."
It takes three gallons of water to make one gallon of ethanol, according to domesticfuel.com. That's interesting news in drought-stricken Florida, where manufacturers are popping up to make ethanol.
Here's a true story, repeated in February 2007 by Tampa newspapers: Florida's first ethanol plant, U.S. EnviroFuels LCC, will need 390,000 gallons of fresh water every day to run its ethanol plant at Tampa's port. That's enough for nearly 1,500 homes, which are under once-a-day watering restrictions.
ONLINE: A History Of Ethanol
Is Your Vehicle E85 Compatible?
Check the 8th digit in the Vehicle Identification Number.
Go to www.e85fuel.com/information/vin.php
In Fords with certain engines, for instance, if the eighth digit of the VIN shows a "V" on a Ford Crown Victoria, an F-150 or Ranger pickup truck, a Lincoln Town Car, a Mazda B3000 pickup or a Mercury Grand Marquis, the car can be fueled with 15 percent ethanol.
ETHANOL DOS AND DON'TS
Replace pre-1985 fiberglass tanks.
Replace fuel lines, o-rings and gaskets that aren't built for ethanol.
Inspect hose clamps and metal fittings in the fuel system for corrosion.
Refill the fuel tank often to reduce airspace in the tank, which reduces water condensation.
Install a fuel line water separator to eliminate water that collects in the tank.
Use fuel additives to stop fuel from aging and oxidizing.
Use de-emulsifying or hydrophobic additives to prevent water from homogenizing with fuel.
Never use a fuel additive that emulsifies water.
Never buy fuel that isn't clear and bright.
Do not use E10 contaminated with water without a combustion-enhancing additive.
Do not leave a near-empty fuel tank sitting for long periods of time.
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  #21  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:18 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

Most of that post is irrelevant when talking about e85 in a higher compression flex fuel vehicle like Pentastar v6. I would expect a lower compression v8 like one found in an older Chevy Tahoe to perform poorly.

Again let's stick to facts. Facts are that ethanol production and distribution are increasing across the US. Fact is v6 JGC is a flex fuel vehicle designed for e85. Fact is my vehicle is used everyday which makes any potential aging issues with e85 mute.

For well built flex fuel vehicles e85 is a fine alternative. Especially when gas prices start heading to $5 a gallon.

So appears I'm one of few forum posters here making commitment to use e85 long term? I will be a long term user of e85 and continue to report how car runs and if I have any problems related to e85. So far have had 3000 trouble free miles using e85. I will log temps in variety of situations from towing to city driving. Logging mileage as well. My last tank of e85 returned 17.8 mpg. Again mountain driving with stop and go traffic cycles.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:08 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

How much is E10 (regular unleaded in most states)? (3.799/gal - MN)

How much do you pay per gallon for E85 in your area? (3.719/gal - MN)

How many mpg do you get on E10? (I get 19.2 mpg avg - 50/50 city/hwy)

How many mpg do you get on E85? (I get 16.5 mpg avg - 50/50 city/hwy)

The facts in our area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) are:

E85 gets approximately 15% less mpg than E10 (and 20% less than regular gas with no ethanol, when you can find it where not required by law in Wisconsin - required by law in Minnesota).

E85 costs 8-10 cents per gallon less than E10. It used to be a 34-40 cents per gallon difference until 1-1-12, when the ethanol subsidy expired.

E85 has issues when used in the Midwest in the winter months. You need to keep your tank full and use gas stations that sell enough to keep their inventories fresh. High water content in E85 can become an issue otherwise, causing poor combusion and/or gas-line freeze).

I would use E85 if it were an economical alternative to E10. As you can see for our area, where our current E10 price is $3.799 per gallon and E85 is $3.719 per gallon (checked this morning on my way to work when I filled up) - using E85 would the equivilent of $4.375 per gallon or approximately 14% more.

Ignoring all other rhetoric, bully for you using E85 if the cost/benefit ratio works out for you; or if your principles direct you to pay more.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

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Originally Posted by Justal13 View Post
How much is E10 (regular unleaded in most states)? (3.799/gal - MN)

How much do you pay per gallon for E85 in your area? (3.719/gal - MN)

How many mpg do you get on E10? (I get 19.2 mpg avg - 50/50 city/hwy)

How many mpg do you get on E85? (I get 16.5 mpg avg - 50/50 city/hwy)

The facts in our area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) are:

E85 gets approximately 15% less mpg than E10 (and 20% less than regular gas with no ethanol, when you can find it where not required by law in Wisconsin - required by law in Minnesota).

E85 costs 8-10 cents per gallon less than E10. It used to be a 34-40 cents per gallon difference until 1-1-12, when the ethanol subsidy expired.

E85 has issues when used in the Midwest in the winter months. You need to keep your tank full and use gas stations that sell enough to keep their inventories fresh. High water content in E85 can become an issue otherwise, causing poor combusion and/or gas-line freeze).

I would use E85 if it were an economical alternative to E10. As you can see for our area, where our current E10 price is $3.799 per gallon and E85 is $3.719 per gallon (checked this morning on my way to work when I filled up) - using E85 would the equivilent of $4.375 per gallon or approximately 14% more.

.
The market data doesnt support some of your numbers? There are e85 E10 price trackers all over the US now. Prices reported this week show much bigger margin than you are reporting in MN and WI. You sure you were looking at E 85 prices? Im easily paying $.40 to $.60 a gallon less for E85 in my area of California.

http://e85prices.com/minnesota.html

http://e85prices.com/wisconsin.html
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:06 PM
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Re: E85 can I do anything to improve fuel mileage?

Great E85 resources


http://e85prices.com/

http://www.e85fuel.com/


http://www.growthenergy.org/

http://www.drivingethanol.org/ethanol_lane.html

Love this one!

http://www.raceone85.com/
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