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  #25  
Old 08-24-2010, 07:27 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

Marcus and Marlon let me make myself more clear about my bottom line question. Look at the literature, the press releases and jeep.com They all refer to this Impressive Fellow (Pentastar) as being flex-capable. NO WHERE does any info refer to "CARB STATE" restriction. Dealer salespeople are even saying IT IS E-85 capable. The stuff they were given on the training tour even reads that way. It would make sense , Marlon, they Chrysler would clarify this before some dummy ruins an engine.
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  #26  
Old 08-25-2010, 02:43 AM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

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Originally Posted by abby View Post
Marcus and Marlon let me make myself more clear about my bottom line question. Look at the literature, the press releases and jeep.com They all refer to this Impressive Fellow (Pentastar) as being flex-capable. NO WHERE does any info refer to "CARB STATE" restriction. Dealer salespeople are even saying IT IS E-85 capable. The stuff they were given on the training tour even reads that way. It would make sense , Marlon, they Chrysler would clarify this before some dummy ruins an engine.
I seriously doubt that you will ruin it.

Heck I run E-85 in my entirely incapable 3.7L Jeep.

But if you ever have any warranty issues, related to fuel, do not at all expect for them (Chrysler) to fix it. They WILL know.

Dealer salespeople are usually stupid and do not know what they are talking about, so I wouldn't trust them.
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  #27  
Old 08-25-2010, 03:58 AM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

How was your gas mileage with the E85?
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  #28  
Old 08-25-2010, 10:13 AM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

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Originally Posted by Marlon_JB2 View Post
...Dealer salespeople are usually stupid and do not know what they are talking about, so I wouldn't trust them.
Ouch!!!
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  #29  
Old 08-25-2010, 10:18 AM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

If you want it to be capable I will trade you my flex fuel badge and gas cap... lol
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  #30  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:39 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

Boy there's a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Any gas engine will run just fine on E85, but use of high ethanol content fuel over a prolonged period of time will ruin fuel delivery components like hoses and such.

I run E85 in my WK all the time (it was built for Flex Fuel) - E85 is 100+ octane and is an economically viable substitute for premium fuel. I need premium fuel due the Superchips high octane tune I run.

It does NOT take more than a gallon of fuel (diesel, gasoline) to create a gallon of ethanol. Ethanol does suffer from a delivery problem - there are no ethanol pipelines like there are for gasoline (crude oil to the refineries?) and natural gas, so DELIVERY of ethanol to gas stations takes more energy than diesel and gasoline.

Flex Fuel vehicles can also run Methanol - which you can get "for free" by taping into landfills. You can also make ethanol (and probably methanol) from plants other than corn and sugar such as switchgrass. There's a Canadian company in Colorado that has a pilot project to take the BILLIONS of pine trees in the Rocky Mountains that were killed by the pine bark beetle and convert them in to ethanol.

Corn is (hopefully) the BEGINNING, not the end. The farming lobby does restrict the amount of sugar-derived ethanol we can get from outside the country and that should stop. Then again, Brazil cuts down a lot of trees to expand their sugar production, so there would be a global environmental cost to freeing up our ethanol market to Brazil.
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  #31  
Old 08-25-2010, 02:26 PM
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Exclamation Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

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Originally Posted by RedRocker View Post
...It does NOT take more than a gallon of fuel (diesel, gasoline) to create a gallon of ethanol....
Sorry Red: "131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol, while one gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUs. This means it takes 70 percent more energy to produce ethanol than the energy that is actually in the ethanol. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs. In other words, production of ethanol creates a substantial LOSS of energy, making ethanol production unsustainable."

"In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures were not included in the analysis."

"The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the combustion of these products."

(Studies from Cornell and Berkeley)

In the future, this may not be true. Once we have alternative powered farm production vehicles, and alternative fuel trucks to transport the materials, this may no longer be true, but it is now a factor.
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  #32  
Old 08-25-2010, 03:05 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

It is not necessarily a bad thing to use more energy in the creation of the fuel source than the fuel source provides. You just have to look at the fuel your vehicle burns as an energy storage medium, no more.

Gasoline and diesel are not just energy storage media, they are actual energy sources themselves, but general agreement is that one way or another we will eventually need to move to something else.

Many of the various alternative energies also will require a net energy expenditure vs. the amount of energy gained when the fuel is burned (otherwise, you'd be violating the laws of thermodynamics). If you have the other energy to use and you're willing to trade it for a cleaner burning or otherwise renewable fuel, then so be it.
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  #33  
Old 08-25-2010, 03:18 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

Agreed, and the question that is posed to us. I would prefer advancements of fuel cells, but packaging seems to be the larger problem at this point.
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  #34  
Old 08-25-2010, 03:39 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

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Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post
Sorry Red: "131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol, while one gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUs. This means it takes 70 percent more energy to produce ethanol than the energy that is actually in the ethanol. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs. In other words, production of ethanol creates a substantial LOSS of energy, making ethanol production unsustainable."

"In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures were not included in the analysis."

"The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the combustion of these products."

(Studies from Cornell and Berkeley)

In the future, this may not be true. Once we have alternative powered farm production vehicles, and alternative fuel trucks to transport the materials, this may no longer be true, but it is now a factor.

Yeah, I've read all that as well as counterpoints that claim you get roughly a 60% return, so who are you going to believe? I believe economics.

Most subsidies from the g'ment are in the form of tax breaks - the producers don't have to pay taxes (or full taxes) on profits earned from ethanol production. Tax breaks are only useful if you make a profit. If your raw materials (diesel fuel, corn, fertilizer, etc.) cost more than the ethanol you produce, there will be no profits. Yet tax breaks on ethanol production (profit) cost the g'ment billions of dollars a year.

To simplify: You can't turn a profit by transforming 2 gallons of diesel into 1 gallon of ethanol, yet ethanol producers are making a profit, so the premise is invalid.
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  #35  
Old 08-25-2010, 04:32 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

Missing your point...diesel to ethanol??? Also, the government is your tax dollars, not their dollars. Sorry to have taken this so far off topic.
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  #36  
Old 08-25-2010, 05:36 PM
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Re: E85 capable questions. Pentastar 3.6L

WOW
I'm impressed with the posts from jim hef and redrocker .. we've really got a nice, intelligent dialogue going. Thanks guys it is refreshing

Oh I believe the gov't subsidy to the ethanol people is about 50 cents a gallon,

abby,
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