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  #25  
Old 11-02-2011, 02:09 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

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Originally Posted by xcespwr View Post
Instead of relying on pictures to judge size, why don't you look at the manufacturers spec sheet I posted. The spec sheet has all the dimensions listed. If the spec sheet is wrong then you should email Volant. Saying it "looks" smaller based on a picture taken feet away from the tube is a little silly.

Someone should have one tomorrow (stated in a previous post) so we will have a definitive size then. No reason to bash this one based on one picture on the web.
Not bashing just saying do not get your hopes up about any performance increases because the stock airbox already flows more than the engine can inhale.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:34 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

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Originally Posted by GFY8 View Post
I think it looks great and will function a lot better. That is why I got one. His WAI looks nice but I doubt functions any better if not worse.

Any way I will report on it tomorrow night when I Install it pics may be involved.
It functions really well compared to when the IAT was in the metal intake pipe. It does not heat soak like Bwoody's intake!!! The stock spot they put the IAT is right where radiant heat from the radiator will hit it which will heat soak the sensor. My warm air intake as you call it showed intake air temps that were as low or lower than the stock airbox due to good filter and IAT positioning. So is it really a warm air intake? Just trying to keep you guys from wasting $300 hoping you will gain significant power over the stock airbox. It looks nice but honestly so does the stock airbox compared to so vehicles out there. I did my intake for sound mainly but I also wanted to preserve stock like power, drivability and response.
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  #27  
Old 11-02-2011, 02:40 PM
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Well this is my 4th Hemi. And Every CAI I have put on has helped. Sure not a huge difference but noticeable. Combine that with a tune/exhaust you will def notice that.

So if you are saying the engine can only handle 4xxcfm then why do you have one. That for sure decreased the performance of your engine. We could argue for ever on this and every forum does

I guess to each there own.
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Old 11-02-2011, 03:07 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

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Originally Posted by GFY8 View Post
Well this is my 4th Hemi. And Every CAI I have put on has helped. Sure not a huge difference but noticeable. Combine that with a tune/exhaust you will def notice that.

So if you are saying the engine can only handle 4xxcfm then why do you have one. That for sure decreased the performance of your engine. We could argue for ever on this and every forum does

I guess to each there own.
It definitely did not decrease performance (data logging 0-60 times with my HP Tuners scanner proves this) and I already said I did it mainly for sound. I knew what the stock intake flowed (580 CFM) and how much air a 360 bhp engine ingests at 5200 RPMs (approx 36-37 lbs/min or 475-485 CFM at 70*F) so as soon as I crunched the numbers I knew not to expect any big gains from an intake. I tune for a living mostly LS GM cars and LNF turbo Soltices, Skys, Cobalts, and HHRs. I know a thing or two when it comes to tuning and making power. My first version of this intake definitely had issues with heat soak due to the position of the IAT and I had 120-130* IATs when fully warmed up. Once I moved the sensor out of its giant metal heat sink and into the filter inlet IATs dropped 50* or more and performance came right back with throttle response maybe a little better than stock. I also have a ported TB and intake mani so those might be helping as well. I have straight through magnaflows and a H-pipe in place of my front resonator as well. I need a tune but a tune will not increase airflow on a NA vehicle just the efficiency which which it uses that air to make power (A/F and timing are critical)
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  #29  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:42 PM
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Moving the air sensor to change the ait1 readings is risky business.
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  #30  
Old 11-02-2011, 06:13 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

The stock intake per terminator2 flows 580 cfm. At standard temperature and pressure 32* @ 14.5 psi (sea level) spinning at 5800 rpm (factory red line) the Hemi needs 578.99 CFM. So it appears to me that unless one raises the operating RPM or increases the volumetric efficiency then we are all just really wasting our money. I believe that the hemi's true upper limit operating range is between 6300 (conservative) and 6800 rpm. I came to the conclusion of this by doing some simple auto math based off of the components the engine is made of. I believe that if the Hemi's piston speed is kept between 3800 fpm and 4000 fpm then the engine should not let go. I do believe that running piston speeds over 3800 fpm will cause premature wear on the motor. If we take (3800fpm x6)/ stroke 3.58 = 6368RPM (4000fpm x6)/stroke 3.58=6703 RPM.
At 6368 RPM the Hemi will require 635.69 CFM and at 6703 RPM the Hemi will require 669.22 CFM @ standard temp and pressure an increase in 56.7 CFM and 90.2 CFM respectivly . My point is this. Until the codes are cracked and we can raise the rpm limit to the Hemi's true performance limts instead of being stuck with the ultra conservative factory limits. Than we are all wasting our money including myself with the K&N style Drop in filter. Now this is all based off of top end performance.

There is however a potential for across the board performance increases at lower RPM's due to the after market CAI tubes being less restrictive at lower rpm levels. So again unless your increasing the operating rpm or increasing volumetric efficiency you don't need more CFM you just need a smoother path to deliver the CFM. This is why a lot of guys running drop ins do not feel any performance change unless they have made some other mod like a chip, and why guys with bone stock systems feel a change in performance with the CAI.
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  #31  
Old 11-02-2011, 08:04 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

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Originally Posted by Terminator2 View Post
My first version of this intake definitely had issues with heat soak due to the position of the IAT and I had 120-130* IATs when fully warmed up. Once I moved the sensor out of its giant metal heat sink and into the filter inlet IATs dropped 50* or more and performance came right back with throttle response maybe a little better than stock.
My question to you is, do you think that the 120*-130*F IATs were accurate and therefor moved the sensor to "trick" it. Or do you think that the 120*-130*F IATs were erroneous and therefor moved the sensor to show a correct IAT.

I would be very interested to see two things. 1) I would like to see the temperature inside the IAT measured with a calibrated fluke style thermometer, just to confirm what the actual air temp was. 2) I would like to see the IAT wrapped in some sort of insulation and see if a) the sensor temp is affected and b) if the actual air temp is affected.

I do not doubt one bit that the sensor is reading the high temps, and thus causing the computer to mange the engine based off of those temperature readings. I would like to see some one definitively prove that the heat soak of the metal tube is in turn heat soaking the sensor in the stock location. I would also like to see someone definitively disprove that the air temperature inside the intake is not 120*-130*F but the 70*-80*F temperatures being read at the alternative location.
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  #32  
Old 11-02-2011, 08:28 PM
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My topic turned in to a headache to read.
GFY
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  #33  
Old 11-02-2011, 10:03 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

Im going to put like 4 of these in my intake to get maximum power. http://www.tornadofuel-saver.com/?gc...FQRShwodaFAHOA
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Old 11-02-2011, 10:05 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

Quote:
Originally Posted by GFY8 View Post
My topic turned in to a headache to read.
GFY
Sorry for my technical ramblings.

I do like the volant systems. I have used them for years on everything from mustangs to trucks. I can't wait for some pics of some installs. If the fit and finish is as good as previous versions I have had, then it will be well worth the money. This will more than likely be my next mod as it appears to offer the least amount of restriction combine with the most filter protection. In the past they have offered cold air "scoops" for their boxes. I wonder if they will be available for the WK2?
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  #35  
Old 11-02-2011, 10:56 PM
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Re: Volant CAI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator2 View Post
It definitely did not decrease performance (data logging 0-60 times with my HP Tuners scanner proves this) and I already said I did it mainly for sound. I knew what the stock intake flowed (580 CFM) and how much air a 360 bhp engine ingests at 5200 RPMs (approx 36-37 lbs/min or 475-485 CFM at 70*F) so as soon as I crunched the numbers I knew not to expect any big gains from an intake. I tune for a living mostly LS GM cars and LNF turbo Soltices, Skys, Cobalts, and HHRs. I know a thing or two when it comes to tuning and making power. My first version of this intake definitely had issues with heat soak due to the position of the IAT and I had 120-130* IATs when fully warmed up. Once I moved the sensor out of its giant metal heat sink and into the filter inlet IATs dropped 50* or more and performance came right back with throttle response maybe a little better than stock. I also have a ported TB and intake mani so those might be helping as well. I have straight through magnaflows and a H-pipe in place of my front resonator as well. I need a tune but a tune will not increase airflow on a NA vehicle just the efficiency which which it uses that air to make power (A/F and timing are critical)
Hot IATs aside (Wish there was a tasteful way to route outside air into the air filter area) because of the way the engine bay is built, as mentioned in the FS thread its a great looking intake.

Was there much to gain from porting the manifold? I finally finished a 2011 TB this week after being out of town/moving.

Are you able to datalog PIDs using HPTuners? I would have figured not, but if you are, cool...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Learo2000GT View Post
Moving the air sensor to change the ait1 readings is risky business.
Not the case here. Even though the general state of tune has become increasingly higher from the MFG, the actual PCM calibration has not. The stock cal on these is extremely mild. Anything you can do to lean it out or increase the timing, can be considered a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRoll1ns View Post
The stock intake per terminator2 flows 580 cfm. At standard temperature and pressure 32* @ 14.5 psi (sea level) spinning at 5800 rpm (factory red line) the Hemi needs 578.99 CFM. So it appears to me that unless one raises the operating RPM or increases the volumetric efficiency then we are all just really wasting our money. I believe that the hemi's true upper limit operating range is between 6300 (conservative) and 6800 rpm. I came to the conclusion of this by doing some simple auto math based off of the components the engine is made of. I believe that if the Hemi's piston speed is kept between 3800 fpm and 4000 fpm then the engine should not let go. I do believe that running piston speeds over 3800 fpm will cause premature wear on the motor. If we take (3800fpm x6)/ stroke 3.58 = 6368RPM (4000fpm x6)/stroke 3.58=6703 RPM.
At 6368 RPM the Hemi will require 635.69 CFM and at 6703 RPM the Hemi will require 669.22 CFM @ standard temp and pressure an increase in 56.7 CFM and 90.2 CFM respectivly . My point is this. Until the codes are cracked and we can raise the rpm limit to the Hemi's true performance limts instead of being stuck with the ultra conservative factory limits. Than we are all wasting our money including myself with the K&N style Drop in filter. Now this is all based off of top end performance.

There is however a potential for across the board performance increases at lower RPM's due to the after market CAI tubes being less restrictive at lower rpm levels. So again unless your increasing the operating rpm or increasing volumetric efficiency you don't need more CFM you just need a smoother path to deliver the CFM. This is why a lot of guys running drop ins do not feel any performance change unless they have made some other mod like a chip, and why guys with bone stock systems feel a change in performance with the CAI.
Something that is seldom discussed on performance forums, especially when talking about intake tubes, etc etc is VELOCITY. Flow is only one piece of the puzzle. Even when talking about ported heads- Terminator might know what Im getting at here- everyone talks about "Well XYZ head flows XYZ cfm". NOBODY talks about the velocity. And that is the other key ingredient here.

With the aftermarket CAIs, there is a possibility for improved flow, of course, but also better velocity because there isnt all sorts of crap blowing or disrupting the flow of air. It (stock intake) may all clean up to flow 580 cfm when you're sucking a metric ton of air, but at lower air speeds, just like a wing on a plane, the airflow gets disrupted.

These calculations of the Hemi - do they take into consideration things like scavenging?

I chimed in because it reminded me of when I first started porting TBs on the side about 2 years ago, I reluctantly agreed to start doing Hemi TBs. I was apprehensive as the stock TB is already 80mm- what was there to gain? I was told, "you are wasting your time. the stock TB is enough to support a 6.1 at 6000 rpm. It flows XYZ cfm". I did it anyway and its been pretty successful. I think it has more to do with increased velocity than flow, but I am not sure of this.

Im not sure what the exact scientific reasoning behind it is, but I think there is something to be said about having an intake/exhaust system that is capable of more than what the engine can pump in- or out. Not only does it leave room to grow, but there is "some" gain to be had, depending on how it is done.
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  #36  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:49 AM
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Re: Volant CAI

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Originally Posted by FlyinRyan View Post



Something that is seldom discussed on performance forums, especially when talking about intake tubes, etc etc is VELOCITY. Flow is only one piece of the puzzle. Even when talking about ported heads- Terminator might know what Im getting at here- everyone talks about "Well XYZ head flows XYZ cfm". NOBODY talks about the velocity. And that is the other key ingredient here.

With the aftermarket CAIs, there is a possibility for improved flow, of course, but also better velocity because there isnt all sorts of crap blowing or disrupting the flow of air. It (stock intake) may all clean up to flow 580 cfm when you're sucking a metric ton of air, but at lower air speeds, just like a wing on a plane, the airflow gets disrupted.

These calculations of the Hemi - do they take into consideration things like scavenging?

I chimed in because it reminded me of when I first started porting TBs on the side about 2 years ago, I reluctantly agreed to start doing Hemi TBs. I was apprehensive as the stock TB is already 80mm- what was there to gain? I was told, "you are wasting your time. the stock TB is enough to support a 6.1 at 6000 rpm. It flows XYZ cfm". I did it anyway and its been pretty successful. I think it has more to do with increased velocity than flow, but I am not sure of this.

Im not sure what the exact scientific reasoning behind it is, but I think there is something to be said about having an intake/exhaust system that is capable of more than what the engine can pump in- or out. Not only does it leave room to grow, but there is "some" gain to be had, depending on how it is done.
My numbers do not account for things like scavenging. My CFM numbers are purely based on the maximum theoretical volumetric capacity of the engine at a given RPM. The 5.7L in our Jeeps is still a street engine, albeit a damn good one, but its still a street engine. with that said, a N/A 5.7L Hemi still only has a Volumetric Efficiency of somewhere around 90%. We are not talking about full on race motors that can have actual VE numbers above 100%, so the theoretical numbers are the max amount of CFM's the engine can move. The formula for CFM in an engine at a given RPM is as follows

CFM= (RPM x DISPLACEMENT)/3456


On to Velocity.
you are very correct in the fact that nobody on these forums hardly ever consider velocity when talking about air intakes. One reason is that it is damn near impossible to figure velocity on a stock intake tube without a flow bench. This is due to all the different baffles and such that you pointed out earlier. However, figuring velocity on a CAI tube is very easy. To show every one the difference in velocity of air flow from the stock tube to the Volant, I will use the 3" tube as the stock air tube sense that is the size of the throttle body and the stock air box connection. The Volant tube size is 4.5 inches.

The formual for finding velocity with a known CFM is as follows V= CFM/Area.

We have already established that the CFM at 5800 RPM on our HEMI is 578.99. The area of a 3" pipe is .052 square ft.

578.99CFM/.052 sqft =11134.42 ft per minute

With the 4.5" Volant the area is .11 sqft

578.99CFM/ .11 sqft =5263.54 ft per minute

Because the Volant goes from the slower velocity of the 4.5" tube to the high velocity of the 3" tube at the throttle body, there would naturally be some scavenging effect there.

More important than the velocity, and I think this is what you were getting at earlier, is the fact that if there is one thing engines hate it is turbulence. Removing turbulence improves flow (don't confuse flow with volume or velocity) and improved flow allows the right pieces to fall in place so that the volumetric efficiency can begin to increase. Once the VE increases then more fuel can be added and more power is made. You are very right in the fact that a lot of people get caught up in the thought that they just need to get the engine more air, more volume. They don't understand that it takes a combination of volume, velocity and flow to increase VE and ultimately increase power. This is why manufacturers such as Volant and K&N and others usually retain the stock air inlet location such as the snorkel on the WK2 or a hole in a fender on other makes and models. These manufacturers know that they are not going to free up a lot of top end HP because the engine is already able to take all the volume of air it needs at red line. What they do know is that they can free up a lot of low and mid range power by improving the flow characteristics and scavenging effects of the stock intake.
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