Why no love for the 3.6? - Page 2 - Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum

Go Back   Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum > Jeep Platform Discussion > Grand Cherokee - WK2 - > Engine Performance/Intakes/Exhausts

Join Jeep Garage Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
  #13  
Old 07-22-2015, 01:14 PM
Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.6L WK2
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 392
Thanks: 1
Thanked 69 Times in 46 Posts
Rep Power: 1780
dcorn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WidowST View Post
I understand your response, just in my eyes If that were the case then why would they make turbo kits for half the cars they make turbo kits for? theres always an option of a bigger engine. Also turbos are seen as a nice upgrade for someone who maybe wanted some more power but not the price tag that comes with the next model leap, just my thoughts.
The keyword is CARS. You're talking about a midsized SUV that is mostly built for soccer moms that think they need to go offroading haha. The number of people that mod a grand Cherokee for 'sporty driving' or speed is muuuuuuuuuch lower than basically any car ever made.

__________________
2014 JGC Summit
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #14  
Old 07-22-2015, 02:11 PM
Scsigman's Avatar
Member
My Jeep: 2012 5.7L WK2
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: lansdale, PA
Posts: 46
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 1524
Scsigman is on a distinguished road
Talking Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcorn View Post
The keyword is CARS. You're talking about a midsized SUV that is mostly built for soccer moms that think they need to go offroading haha. The number of people that mod a grand Cherokee for 'sporty driving' or speed is muuuuuuuuuch lower than basically any car ever made.
Yes and no why because merica
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-22-2015, 04:26 PM
Premium Vendor
My Jeep: 2014 6.4L SRT8
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 211
Thanks: 37
Thanked 106 Times in 58 Posts
Rep Power: 1232
RIPP Superchargers is a splendid one to behold
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcorn View Post
I just don't see the point.

For wranglers, it's stupid. When offroading, you want the torque at low rpm and the turbo doesn't give it to you. Even a Vortech is a stretch in that situation. The only time you'd want peaky turbo power is when you need a ton of wheelspeed, and that doesn't take a power adder to get, just gears.

For a street vehicle, why try to make a hot rod Grand Cherokee out of the smallest option engine? What's your endgame with adding power? For an application where you are looking for street drivability, I'd say the centri blower makes way more sense than a turbo. If you are looking for peak power, which a turbo would be good for, you started with the wrong engine.
With over 5000 systems sold to date in the Wrangler market, we can definitively say we are the foremost experts in Jeep power for the sock V6 engines.

Specifically talking the 3.6L, There are many misconceptions about where you need the power. With over 80% of all Wranglers sold being Automatics, there is the combination of:
  1. Torque converter lockup.
  2. Oversize compressor for higher volumes of air moved.
The transmission in question, the Mercedes 5G-Tronic/W5A580/NAG1 has an electronically assisted converter. The "Converter Lockup" on these transmissions is anywhere between 1600 and 2400 RPM based on load and calculated through the "torque management" software.


The Compressor that we use is a Vortech V3 type, optimized for our application, and able to flow a peak of 1150CFM. The units we use are rated for 775HP applications.
At 1600 RPM, Our blower just starts to come into it's efficiency. Working in harmony with the flow characteristics of the narrow angle V6 and converter lockup.

Again, talking specifically about Wranglers,also where you are at that point where you would need that "low end grunt", you will usually be in 4Lo utilizing the torque multiplication properties of the 2.72:1 step up for standard JK's and 4.0:1 step up for Wrangler Rubicons. As well as the Torque multiplication properties of the Torque Converter. In these conditions, The torque management profile may delay converter lockup to as late as 3200 RPM, well within the efficiency of our blower.

At this point it is also relative to point out that, power power power, when trying to wheel will break things, the sudden onset of power demonstrated by our competitors products make it very difficult to modulate the throttle to get you over the obstacle at hand and they tend to surge or leap forward. We have found usually 2-3PSI of boost is all that is used by most of our clients when navigating an obstacle with finesse offroad. Our product doesn't have the power drop off as noted in the others, for the added boost where you want it, where you need it, when merging on the highway, and maintaining speed while returning better fuel economy, and that extra power you need to pass. We make our customers love their Jeeps again.

In the WK2, you will have either the above mentioned NAG1 or ZF 8speed for the 2014+ models, all backed up by a more efficient drivetrain than that found in the Wrangler for better power transfer to the wheels. Couple that to the shoter final drive ratio than that found in the 5.7L models, we feel it's the hidden gem in the WK2 lineup! See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
You got that mostly wrong. With the exception of the current gasoline 3.0 V6, their past and current 1.8; 2.0; 2.7; 4.0; 4.2 four, six and eight cylinder engines on gasoline have had one or two Turbochargers.

Turbo is great, I wish they offered it on the Jeep. But I do not believe in supercharging or turbocharging with aftermarket solutions a factory normally aspirated engine. It is just asking for trouble.
Our systems are low pressure systems and we have seen over 100,000 trouble free supercharged miles reported by our customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgunner View Post
For the 3.6 and possibly 5.7 I don't see why FCA would put turbo's on it. What for? They are not your typical race or competitive vehicle. I mean unless your gonna be racing while grocery shopping or going on a road trip which I highly doubt. I just feel it's pointless. Don't get me wrong I'm into speed myself coming from LS1 and LS3 engines I love me some track time!!!

Now the SRT? Now that I would praise FCA if they put a turbo or even supercharging that SOB! So in a nutshell your average joe with a 3.6 or 5.7 wouldn't be utilizing that turbo/supercharger specially if they are mall crawlers. If your into an adrenaline rush I would recommend going for an SRT. Bottom line.
We will let our videos speak for themselves here. The question posted by the OP was power adders for the 3.6L WK2's. Odds are, if they could afford to purchase an SRT8, they would have.







It is our observation is that the 3.6L Pentastar V6 is really the hidden gem. Between the shorter ratio final drive, lighter weight, and the huge power gains. You really have nothing to be "ashamed by".

RIPP
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-22-2015, 05:18 PM
ssgunner's Avatar
Member
My Jeep: 2014 5.7L WK2
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: So Cal
Posts: 950
Thanks: 19
Thanked 55 Times in 51 Posts
Rep Power: 1939
ssgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Well have you driven a 3 L V6 turbo car before? Like a BMW ? Or by inclusion, a supercharged V6 like the S4? I have driven both, admittedly as a BMW 135 and Audi S4 trims, but I can imagine the driving experience in a 3 L V6 supercharged Range Rover would be similar. And it is pleasant and effortless.
Nope. Only messed around 4 banger turbos and LS1 and superchaged LS3. I know turbo will be upto par with a V8. But then What? What happens when that V8 is now supercharged or has turbo? I think someone mentioned you gotta have an endgame. I agree a six banger supercharged range would be pleasant but i must admit a twin turbo v8 would be much nicer

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIPP Superchargers View Post
We will let our videos speak for themselves here. The question posted by the OP was power adders for the 3.6L WK2's. Odds are, if they could afford to purchase an SRT8, they would have.

RIPP
I am very aware of what the OP's question is. And again, yes a 3.6 can be up to par with a non modded V8, but once it is then what? I mean for the price of a turbo kit, they might as well should of gone with a hemi. My opinion mentioned was more so directed as to having a supercharged kit or turbo from the factory (still keep warranty) similar to how GM has done so with the ZL1.
__________________
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4x2 5.7 HEMI MAX Steel>Build Date:Oct/13-Mods: Billet CC Blue, Searching for best exhaust option...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-22-2015, 06:07 PM
Premium Vendor
My Jeep: 2014 6.4L SRT8
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 211
Thanks: 37
Thanked 106 Times in 58 Posts
Rep Power: 1232
RIPP Superchargers is a splendid one to behold
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgunner View Post
Nope. Only messed around 4 banger turbos and LS1 and superchaged LS3. I know turbo will be upto par with a V8. But then What? What happens when that V8 is now supercharged or has turbo? I think someone mentioned you gotta have an endgame. I agree a six banger supercharged range would be pleasant but i must admit a twin turbo v8 would be much nicer



I am very aware of what the OP's question is. And again, yes a 3.6 can be up to par with a non modded V8, but once it is then what? I mean for the price of a turbo kit, they might as well should of gone with a hemi. My opinion mentioned was more so directed as to having a supercharged kit or turbo from the factory (still keep warranty) similar to how GM has done so with the ZL1.
Up to "PAR" with a @$70k SRT8, with $25K to spare.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-22-2015, 06:14 PM
ZLTFUL's Avatar
Member
My Jeep: 2014 5.7L WK2
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: WDSM, IA
Posts: 22
Thanks: 3
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 545
ZLTFUL is on a distinguished road
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
Well have you driven a 3 L V6 turbo car before? Like a BMW ? Or by inclusion, a supercharged V6 like the S4? I have driven both, admittedly as a BMW 135 and Audi S4 trims, but I can imagine the driving experience in a 3 L V6 supercharged Range Rover would be similar. And it is pleasant and effortless
Point of fact (for the sake of clarification and little else really), the 3.0L used in the BMWs is actually an inline 6cylinder not a V. This layout (both N54 and N55) is notoriously smooth on the torque side with the N54 producing at/over 300ft/lbs from just above 1800rpms on up to ~5200rpms. My 535xi pulled like a locomotive. Steady and strong.

Also, the N54 was the twin turbo engine with 2 physical turbos. 1 for the front bank of 3 and one for the rear bank of 3.
The N55 was introduced with a single, twin scroll turbo. This means it is a single physical turbo with 2 turbines (driven by the 2 separate banks of 3 cylinders each) driving a single shaft and a single impeller. That is the "Twin Power" BMW refers to in their nomenclature.

Both engines above, the N54 and the N55 are the same displacement with almost identical performance numbers in stock form but the N55 smoothed out the delivery a little bit more while both took big leaps to reduce turbo lag to negligible levels.

Anyway, that above is besides the point. Just wanted to clarify for clarity's sake!
__________________
What I do when I am not in my GC...
Ducati in The Rockies 2014 RR
Avatar courtesy of www.mybadco.com
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-22-2015, 06:49 PM
ssgunner's Avatar
Member
My Jeep: 2014 5.7L WK2
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: So Cal
Posts: 950
Thanks: 19
Thanked 55 Times in 51 Posts
Rep Power: 1939
ssgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond reputessgunner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIPP Superchargers View Post
Up to "PAR" with a @$70k SRT8, with $25K to spare.
yea your gonna want those 25k for when you break something.

I don't get your point and could really give 2 sh/!5 about it. This is mine. Adding a turbo or supercharging a non srt, is pointless because your gonna need a better suspensions, brakes/rotors list goes on...etc. need I say more. If u ask me and that's only if you ask it's much cheaper to get it factory installed.

Are you gonna tell me that it's all about the hp/tq gains?

Edit: different strokes for different folks.
__________________
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4x2 5.7 HEMI MAX Steel>Build Date:Oct/13-Mods: Billet CC Blue, Searching for best exhaust option...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-23-2015, 08:44 AM
Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.6L WK2
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 392
Thanks: 1
Thanked 69 Times in 46 Posts
Rep Power: 1780
dcorn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Ripp, I get the point about all your engineering. I've had two cars with Vortechs and would love to get your kit for my Jeep at some point. I'm just answering the OP's question that compared to the Wrangler and other cars with the 3.6L engine, the Grand Cherokee is the last one I could see people modifying to get more power. Yes, people on this forum are doing it, but that's nothing compared to the number of JK guys who mod their jeeps and probably doesn't compare to the charger guys either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgunner View Post
yea your gonna want those 25k for when you break something.

I don't get your point and could really give 2 sh/!5 about it. This is mine. Adding a turbo or supercharging a non srt, is pointless because your gonna need a better suspensions, brakes/rotors list goes on...etc. need I say more. If u ask me and that's only if you ask it's much cheaper to get it factory installed.

Are you gonna tell me that it's all about the hp/tq gains?

Edit: different strokes for different folks.
Point made. Now why again are you in here arguing about V6 performance when you have a V8?
__________________
2014 JGC Summit
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-23-2015, 10:45 AM
padgett's Avatar
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Orlando
Posts: 1,807
Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 37 Posts
Rep Power: 82238
padgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond reputepadgett has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

And the key is something I have yet to see mentioned: direct injection. With DI you can add boost without the issue of detonation.

Must admit a bias for sixes and particularly a DOHC 6 with a four valve head and VVTi&e. Is a lot of the reason I bought my GC and has been the best tow car I've ever had (even though wth DOHC, independant suspension dront and rear, and 4 wheel disk braks it sounds more like the E-types of my yout. Except it has a higher redline.

Place to be comparing is the Ford EcoBoost. True they've been pushing the 2.7 where the 3.5 with 420 lb-ft of torque is more suitable for towing - 2.7 is in PE too much of the time and MPG is poor.

Now combine a Pentastar with DI and a turbo or supercharger and you have a potent combo. That has the power of a diesel without the DEF tank and can run on 87 PON & have a 6400 rpm redline. (My experience is that I have as much pulling power as a Hemi or Diesel, just am a gear or two lower down - can exceed any speed limit I know in 2nd.

I've liked turbo diesels for years and had one in my RV. For now & in the USA though, TDI now means turbo-direct injection & the diesel is ded.

ps there is a production car with a warrenty for sale today under $25k that is producing 125 hp/liter on 87 PON. That is what the near future looks like to me.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-23-2015, 04:30 PM
Premium Vendor
My Jeep: 2014 6.4L SRT8
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 211
Thanks: 37
Thanked 106 Times in 58 Posts
Rep Power: 1232
RIPP Superchargers is a splendid one to behold
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgunner View Post
yea your gonna want those 25k for when you break something.

I don't get your point and could really give 2 sh/!5 about it. This is mine. Adding a turbo or supercharging a non srt, is pointless because your gonna need a better suspensions, brakes/rotors list goes on...etc. need I say more. If u ask me and that's only if you ask it's much cheaper to get it factory installed.

Are you gonna tell me that it's all about the hp/tq gains?

Edit: different strokes for different folks.
Given your logic? Why even FI/mod an SRT? Wouldn't you need to upgrade all those components on it, based on the performance increases gained?

All those Items you mentioned that need to be added are available, for "run of the mill" WK2's, and given our experience with the Pentastar, and our excellent reputation for reliability in the Wrangler market we are confident you will get years of trouble free use with our product.
We understand the different strokes for different folks aspect, We were just trying to let those that "made the mistake of not getting a V8 or SRT" know that there are options out there... good ones.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-23-2015, 05:18 PM
ajag's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.6L WK2
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston, Ma
Posts: 648
Thanks: 21
Thanked 123 Times in 96 Posts
Rep Power: 1791
ajag is on a distinguished road
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

I have a 2014 Grand cherokee 3.6L and a new 2015 Durango citadel with the 3.6l

the Jeep has the RIPP supercharger and let me tell you something....its SOO much more fun now to drive. It makes the stock 3.6L in the Durango feel like a snail.

I'd recommend supercharging the 3.6L to anyone who can afford it or wants more power.


It's night and day difference in power after supercharging it .....not even close
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-24-2015, 07:40 AM
f1anatic's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.6L WK2
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,674
Thanks: 68
Thanked 184 Times in 137 Posts
Rep Power: 159922
f1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond reputef1anatic has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why no love for the 3.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
Point of fact (for the sake of clarification and little else really), the 3.0L used in the BMWs is actually an inline 6cylinder not a V. The N55 was introduced with a single, twin scroll turbo. Anyway, that above is besides the point. Just wanted to clarify for clarity's sake!
Ahhh the Bimmer zealots. Yeah bro, it is inline, but I would never own one hence I thought of the Audi and then by extension, of both the Range Rover and the Ripp V6 Pentastar. Just about the only BMW I would ever own would be the 4 Series Gran Coupe 435i xDrive. But before I drop $60,000 on one of those, I would consider a few other cars.

Subaru also does twin-scroll in their new 2.0 turbo engines, with cylinder separation and one impeller and has used twin scroll technology for nearly 2 decades now. Back in the day (2005ish) the JDM Subarus came with a twin scroll that also featured a valve that redirected exhaust gas flow to either the low pressure side or both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIPP Superchargers View Post

In the WK2, you will have either the above mentioned NAG1 or ZF 8speed for the 2014+ models...

Our systems are low pressure systems and we have seen over 100,000 trouble free supercharged miles reported by our customers.

RIPP
I know they are low pressure. I asked you about it in the other thread and you mentioned 6-7 psi. My concerns with supercharging a normally aspirated engine are several fold and have nothing to do with your solution and your approach, which is commendable. I am a firm believer in forced induction, with a few reservations, mainly in that I would have liked to be designed like that from the factory.

People over the years learned to supercharge factory normally aspirated engines like the Infiniti/Nissan VQ35 engine with great success, and others have both super- and turbo- charged the factory 2.5 N/A Subaru engine successfully. But I am yet to see anyone on those forums holding on to a car long enough to prove their reliability. Here are some of my concerns:

Compression. A turbo or supercharged engine is factory built to either a lower compression ratio or with different thicker cylinder walls and heads than its normally aspirated counterparts. e.g. Subaru's SOHC 2.5 N/A vs. DOHC 2.5 turbo engines.

Boost pressure. No doubt 6 psi is low but it is low in comparison to what? It is low in comparison to the average Stage 2-3 Subaru (18-20 psi) or a similarly modified Mitsu Evo (20-22 psi). It is similar to a factory calibrated Audi 3.0 V6 T (~7 psi); it is half the factory boost pressure on a Subaru (~14 psi depending on model).

But for the Pentastar, it is 6 psi more than what the engine was built to operate at (barometric pressure). To put it in perspective, the power increases with the RIP are equivalent to:

a) upgrading a Subaru to a Cobb Stage III (ECU reflash, up-pipe, down-pipe, larger intercooler, larger turbo, injectors and fuel pump) for a mere ~6 PSI boost increase over the factory boost.

b) upgrading an Audi 3.0 V6 TSFI to an APR Stage II 3.0 TSFI V6 pulley kit + ECU flash which brings up the boost ~7 psi.

But these engines were designed to operate above atmospheric pressure, and will take a ~6 psi boost increase, with no large reliability penalties. I am not so sure about the normally aspirated Pentastar that sees 6 psi of boost.

Transmission. I’ve blown a clutch within 6 months of going Stage 2 (pipes and boost turned up). On the forums, there are virtually NO owners of Stage 2+ cars that have not had transmission problems. WIth 10 years on the LegacyGT and NASIOC boards, I've seen people blow more than just a clutch - entire gear sets, differentials and half shafts.

More importantly, there are no happy Subaru automatic transmission (5EAT) owners out there despite replacing valve bodies, torque converters, solenoids. The transmission was not built for that kind of torque increases. It appears that the 8HP70 transmission should be the one matched to the supercharged Pentastar, not the 845RE, based on the power gains.

So to summarize it, I am afraid of boost on a normally aspirated engine given the kind of damage done by 6 PSI boost increase to a powertrain that was designed to take the abuse of forced induction. And that being said, I absolutely think forced induction is the way. I acknowledge that 6 psi of pressure in a 3.6 V6 is not the same as 6 psi of pressure in a 2.5 H4 but if I had a Jeep V8, I would feel a lot more comfortable supercharging it at 6 psi.

With the Ripp Kit, is there a way to turn down the boost for the Pentastar to ...2 psi ? Probably it would have to be done via a mechanical solution such as a pulley? Manual Boost Controller ?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to f1anatic For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LOVE LOVE LOVE my 13' Jeep SRT! Scottina06 Grand Cherokee SRT - WK2 29 06-19-2013 06:41 PM
This is why I love Utah! tydallas Grand Cherokee - WK 13 01-07-2011 07:07 PM
This is why i love jeep NHWK05 Off Road Modifications 27 11-11-2009 08:18 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2012 - JeepGarage.Org
The Jeep Grand Cherokee Owners Community

JeepGarage.org is in no way associated with or endorsed by FCA US LLC. Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, Mopar and SRT are registered trademarks of FCA US LLC.