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  #61  
Old 12-01-2013, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
I guess I see you at baccarat table at the Casino in Monte Carlo in the middle of January? I be arriving on January 12 since the rally starts on the 14th. Some old friends invited me out for it and I thought I would go. They were able to get me a comped suite at Hotel De Paris. Do you know John? I met him when he raced on tarmac in SCCA Nationals. Might also drive up for Susquehannock Trail next May. Who do you drive for?
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  #62  
Old 12-01-2013, 11:38 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
Really my winter tires compromise the safety of vehicle 80% of the time???
And reduce my traction and safety? Care to provide your sources for this?
Dont think so. Have you ever driven a vehicle with winter tires? In the dry, the wet, snow, slush and/or ice. How many hours do you have on a wet skidpad? Do you teach high performance driving and accident avoidance?
Ever run a car club driving school at Summit Point? Do you have a FIA Super license and have done Monte Carlo Rally? Or maybe the Rally GB when they get snow? I spent a lot of years setting up cars for the SCCA regional and IMSA racing and know a little about tires and suspensions.

Sorry all season SUV/Truck tires cant get anywhere you need to go in anything winter can throw at it in DC area. Over the years have passed many a pick up or SUV stuffed into a guardrail and driver had the all seasons you are talking about or A/Ts. We call them no seasons for a reason.
An All Terrain might get you a little further down the road.

You have been lucky. I spend the money on winter tires so I can get home
when Doug is wrong and there is 6+ inches of snow on the ground or that nasty first inch. I have driven down I66 to the Fairfax County Parkway exit
and watched other drivers slide all over the place and get stuck.
Sources? Besides your "experience".
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  #63  
Old 12-02-2013, 09:49 AM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
Road and Track C&D, the Roundel. also the Tire Rack website. Tests have shown a difference in stopping distance in the snow of 30 to 40+ft between winter tires and no seasons. Also big differences in handling and acceleration.
Quote:
There are two common myths about winter tires. One is that they’re only good on snow or ice. Wrong. Even where the roads are dry, you’ll benefit from a rubber compound that’s optimized for freezing temps. Thinking of them as “snow tires” just perpetuates the myth. The other is that having them on when there’s no snow on the ground will wear them out. No way. We’ve run dedicated snow tires for months without seeing any snow at all....
Right IN THE SNOW. IN FREEZING TEMPS. Nobody is disputing that. We don't get any snow here! We get an average of maybe 15 inches per year, and that includes the year we got 50 inches. Last year we had maybe 3 inches total. If we have a snow with more than 3 inches on the roads any one time that is a serious occurrence in Washington. And except for one month our average temperature is above where winter tires have a traction benefit, so at our average temps every other month but January all season tires have more grip than winter tires, and even in January we're only talking 3 degrees. Find me an article that says winter tires are better than all seasons on dry pavement when its 50 degrees and we'll talk about needing them here.

As for Road & Track as a source. You do know who one of their biggest advertisers is right? Online catalog tire merchants. There are multiple full multipage ads in every edition. Of course they think people should drive on winter tires in SC. All these articles extoll the virtues of winter tires in conditions that aren't the conditions we live in.

Read this, Edmunds specifically tested winter tires, all season tires, and summer tires in snow, wet & dry.

Tire Test: All-Season vs. Snow vs. Summer

Result? Winter tires won in snow. That is the only place they won.

The issue in our area is we spend 90% of the winter outside of the conditions that winter tires have a benefiit for. We don't get much snow, most of our winter is dry, and most of our winter is spent well above freezing. So...like I said at the best snow tires here are a waste of money, at the worst they are making you less safe. If we got down below freezing and stayed there for months it would be a different story, but we don't. The only possible argument would be if you were running high performance summer tires in the other 3 seasons, but we're not doing that on a 6,500lb Jeep.
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  #64  
Old 12-02-2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
Average snow fall for the season out where I am is closer to 20". It takes 3 days on average for VDOT or their contractor to plow my roads.
Even so, 20" of snow over the whole winter is not a lot of snow, and I hardly think your experience living where you live is enough to put on other people in the area to suggest that "people in the DC Metro area should have winter tires, and all of us are just lucky we have survived that long". My Jeep VERY rarely leaves the pavement, nor do the vehicles of 98% of the people who live here.

Even in 10-12" of snow, I have never encountered a situation where my Jeep or other SUVs I've owned on all seasons have felt dangerous or been unable to operate. Even on the Lattitudes. Does it "feel better" on winters in that situation? I'm sure...but that situation is the rarer here, and it feels worse all other times on winters.

Quote:
Or like Saturday the farm road I had to head down at around noon was muddy, icy and had standing water in the ruts that was mostly ice. I am on this same road at least once a week.
Perhaps in that situation you are experiencing a benefit from the winter tires. BUT, you must understand that when you are driving on the Beltway at 65 MPH and its 45 degrees or so, you are at best no better on winters, and perhaps worse off on winters than I am on all seasons.

Here's a question for you, if you upgraded to an AllTerrain all season tire would you get the traction benefit when you are driving down your farm road while retaining the safety of a tire designed for the temps we have here in the mid-atlantic when driving on dry roads well above freezing? I personally think yes.

Quote:
And its the first couple of inches of snow that makes life challenging for DC drivers.
But you or me having winter tires doesn't help them. Its challenging for them because they don't know how to drive in the snow. Why? Because we don't get much snow. Driving in the rain is often challenging for DC drivers. Why? Because we don't really even get much rain. Most days you're left with dry...where winter tires are at their worst.

Quote:
All my friends who do track days, race in SCCA, ALMS and Grand Am or do pro rally who live in DC area have winter tires on their daily drivers. These guys and girls are your instructors if you attend BMWCCA drivers schools along the East Coast. 99% of them are life long DC area residents.
I've never met anybody in the DC area who uses snows. You guys are kinda "driving nerds" (not meant to be an insult), the fact that you do something overkill doesn't surprise me, nor does it change my opinion on the matter. The vast majority of people in our area use all season tires, and the vast majority of people in our area get home safely. I'll play my odds.

I am also sure your fellow driving nerds use summer rubber, since all of you hate "no seasons". Again, for those of us wfor whom driving is a task not a sport, overkill.

Quote:
Hopefully that extra stopping distance in the snow wont bite you this winter when some high school student out in mom's X5 is too busy texting while driving on a snow covered road as he heads to his bud's to try out the latest Sony Playstation. Or that extra bit of car control coming home form a Christmas party when Bambi suddenly appears in front of you a quarter mile from home on that dry road when temps are in mid 20's.
Hopefully the extra stopping distance and reduced roadholding in the dry and wet above 45 degrees you have on your winter tires won't bite you during the 95% of winter days so you can maybe, perhaps be safer on the 5% day when it snows or is below freezing.

I'll be just fine. I've been fine my whole life, my parents were fine their whole lives living here. Everybody I know has been fine and will be fine.
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  #65  
Old 12-02-2013, 11:39 AM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Setoutguy View Post
Just could be us so called "driving nerds" just might have more than a clue than the general population of drivers in the DC area to include you.
Apparently you also have the ability to defy physics. This is what we know the facts to be:

1. Winter tires offer dramatically improved traction in snow and ice conditions.
2. The rubber compounds in winter tires are designed to be effective at temperatures below about 7 degrees C (45 degrees F or so). Above 45 degrees, winter tires loose traction.
3. We know all season tires have rubber compounds that begin to lose their ability to grip below about 40-45 degrees.

These are the facts. It is also a fact that we spend the majority of the winter here above 40 degrees, in fact above 45 degrees and we get very little snow.

Quote:
Naw AT's would actually lead to increased braking distances in the wet and dry on pavement and a decrease in cornering capability on pavement.
Compared to winter tires in temps 45 degrees or over? I need a source on that. Compared to more street oriented all seasons sure.

Quote:
In 10 to 12 inches of snow winter tires give you an increased safety margin. Glad you haven't needed it.
Of course they give you a margin in snow like that. But we very rarely have ANY snow...let alone 10 to 12 inches of snow. We spend most of the winter driving on dry pavement over 45 degrees...where winter tires are the least effective. Its foolish to drive around on tires that are less effective 95% of the time looking for that 5% occurrence. We get a 10 inch snowfall here what, every 5 years? Maybe...

Quote:
Ever had any wet skidpad time or taken a high performance driving school from Skip Barber. Do you ski might want to hit a resort that offers the Bridgestone Winter Driving School.
I have done all of the above except the winter driving school, does it make me a better driver? Sure. Does it mean I have the knowledge to refute the facts that have been brought forward here? No. Neither do you. I have no doubt you are a very good driver, but I am also a very good driver and there are many good drivers.

Answer the question I posted earlier. If winter tires are safer both in snow, and on dry pavement in higher temps why don't we drive on them all the time? The answer is because they are not appropriate for higher temps...and the fact is it doesn't get cold enough here to reap the rewards of winter tires. On our coldest day it wouldn't be cold enough for my brother in law in Albany to mount his winters. Maybe a cold night it gets down to high 20s. You're at a temp there that the winter tires are of benefit...but again that is not the situation a driver in DC will be in most of the time. The intelligent thing to do is to choose a tire that will benefit you the majority of the time...and in DC that is an all season tire.
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  #66  
Old 12-02-2013, 01:01 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

I've bought many tires from the guys at Radial Tire and have spoken with the owners many times. Talk about THE place to buy tires in the DC Area, in fact they're replacing the tires on the Jeep probably this week.

Depending on he model, Goodyear Wranglers aren't very good tires. Even so, a "seat of the pants" test drive around the block is meaningless, whether it was done buy the owner of Radial Tire who is also a Nascar driver or whomever. The facts are the facts...winter tires are designed to offer their best grip at temps below 45 degrees, above 45 degrees their grip suffers. Its the same as with an all season or summer tire, they are designed to offer their best grip in warmer, hotter conditions, and thus their performance below 45 degrees suffers. These are the facts.

Bear in mind, that the temp that matters is not the air temp, its the temp where the rubber meets the road. In order for that temp to be 45 degrees, it has to be way colder than 45 degrees in air temp. It just doesn't get that cold here, at least not for long enough periods of time to make the expense and hassle of winter tires worth it, or to make the FACT that you will have less traction on dry roads when temps are higher (most of the time) with winter tires worth the tradeoff.

Unless you can point me to some evidence that says winter tires do not lose grip on dry roads above 45 degrees compared to all season tires any anecdote about "some guy" who drove your car around the block on winter tires and said it was awesome will remain meaningless. You can tell absolutely nothing about how a vehicle performs when driving it around the block. He wasn't out on a skidpad or doing acceleration or braking runs in your car, he drove it around the block. I posted a link to a test that does exactly that above and the results were clear.

The fact remains, you are sacrificing grip and safety 95% of the time for a benefit perhaps 5% of the time in our area. Again, in Buffalo or Montreal its a different story.
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  #67  
Old 12-02-2013, 02:45 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

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Originally Posted by JeeperJohn View Post
Here's something you might want to check out! I bought a set of 265/60R18 Michelin X-Ice snow tires today from Tire Rack. Had them mounted on dedicated 18" wheels with Tire Pressure Sensors for my Summit so I could just swap them in November and back again in March. All's good you say? Wrong!

Just got a call from the good folks at Tire Rack and these tires are illegal for my Summit. In Pennsylvania if the tires you have on the car are smaller than what is on the door placard (20") the car will fail inspection. Depending upon when your annual inspection falls this might not be a problem but here's yet another case of legislators feeling the need to insert themselves into every detail of your daily life. Unbelievable.

Not meant to be a political rant, just a heads up to check your local laws.
So, is that placard something easily bleached out and replaced with the number 18?
[ask a local check forger for help :-) ]

Technical merits of smaller snow tires seem to be lost in your states dumbassery.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:01 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

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Originally Posted by silvermax04 View Post
Those are the ones I am going for also, good price where did you get them. How do they ride on the highway on the jeep quite?
I went with Sullivan in Hampton - Have an appt this coming Saturday and will let you know on the ride - have to believe they are quieter than the OEM's
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  #69  
Old 12-07-2013, 11:55 AM
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I bought 18 Wheels and Blizzak last Summer for my Summit from Discount. $1500 with tax. To me this is cheep insurance. I use to have a Tourareg with Nokiens that would last 30k. This package is better and I will not replace the OEM until they are worn out. I use to replace tires every other fall as the tires were 50% or more. I won't need to do that. I will make sure the Blizzaks are good. Yes is cost money, but a wreck will be costly. If you live in a cold area, do the smart, cheep thing and get tires for the conditions. OEM are for light snow and no ice. I have had 4 wheel drive for over 35 years. Pickups, 3 Explorers, 2 Touraegs and my 13 Summit. I can remember sliding on ice with OEM. Thought the Touraregs system would be great on some light snow and be an improvement over the 99 Explorer. Nope. The Nokiens were a huge improvement over the Contact 4x4 OEM.
I think a current 2 wheel drive car with snows will be better in most snow, ice than our Jeeps on OEM.
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  #70  
Old 12-07-2013, 02:09 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

Horrible is an overstatement. They are not great but suffice. I was told by the third generation owner of a tire store that has been in business for 100 years that he sells a lot of Forteras and has few complaints.
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  #71  
Old 12-07-2013, 03:34 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winecity View Post
If you live in a cold area, do the smart, cheep thing and get tires for the conditions.
I agree completely, if you live in a cold area. We don't.
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  #72  
Old 12-07-2013, 08:42 PM
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Re: OEM tires are horrible in Snow.

The stock Fortera HLs when using snow mode work really well on my 2012 Overland on ice or snow. Without snow mode - not so good.
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