What's the deal with BWoody Performance? - Page 2 - Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum

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  #13  
Old 12-01-2015, 09:09 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Oh ok......thought you had an srt.

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  #14  
Old 12-01-2015, 03:11 PM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot4
What does my telephone service have to do with my comments? I'm discussing questionable customer service. Think YOUR long distance is actually free? I would be willing to bet that you indeed are paying for it, it's just buried off in some "bundle" that you subscribe to. And back to my original sentiments, shuffling a potential customer off on hold, for 7-8 minutes, without AT LEAST checking back, to tell you that you haven't been forgotten, is kind of rude.
A little off topic, but...
If you already have high speed internet, check out Ooma VOIP phone service.
I've been using it for over a year now with no issues, I even have 2 lines for when the wife and I both work from home and have conference calls.
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Old 12-02-2015, 02:22 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

I did plenty of research here on these forums about both brands and decided to go with the Black Ops. I received them a few weeks ago and their customer service was great. There was a delay and they let me know it was because they didn't like the quality of the bushings they had left, so they wanted to order a new production batch and verify quality control before assembling and shipping out my set. The fact that they delayed my order to send me quality parts means a lot to me. It keeps me from paying a shop twice when I have to take them out because of an issue.

I came across the video as well doing my research and that had me skeptical about the Black Ops links. However I found no complaints on any of the boards or forums about failures like the video. Yes when I received my Black Ops endlinks I tried the same procedure in the video with no such luck of separating the link from the bushing.

On the other end the BW endlinks had plenty of well documented complaints and issues, and helped make my decision easier. Just do a search and the most common issue that will come up is regular greasing required, bushing deterioration, bushing failure, etc. I drive a lot for work (Realtor) so reliability is more of a priority than performance. I almost placed an order for the BW endlinks until I searched on this forum and came across the Black Ops comparison thread. Thankfully I did see that in time before placing my order.

I have the Summit 4x4 Quadra lift as well. I'm planning on upgrading both front and rear sway bars + Black Ops endlinks, and throwing on Hawk rotors and HPS pads when I can schedule a shop date. I'm pretty sure I will be happy after that for an SUV. Not exactly the BMW 535 I gave up, but anything is an improvement over stock.
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Old 12-02-2015, 02:28 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

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Originally Posted by Scottina06 View Post
If you believe that video that was done by bwoody...then so be it. Me and hundreds others have had both and the bwoodys are the ones that fail, squeak and rust. Not gonna argue the other points you make as the blackops links were tested and engineered by a suspension engineer.
Scott always gives the best advice and seems to be the first to get new parts and products, then reports with an unbiased opinion. I appreciate him being the guinea pig, and anytime I read his recommendation I feel pretty good about following his advice.
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:03 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentMike View Post
I did plenty of research here on these forums about both brands and decided to go with the Black Ops. I received them a few weeks ago and their customer service was great. There was a delay and they let me know it was because they didn't like the quality of the bushings they had left, so they wanted to order a new production batch and verify quality control before assembling and shipping out my set. The fact that they delayed my order to send me quality parts means a lot to me. It keeps me from paying a shop twice when I have to take them out because of an issue.

I came across the video as well doing my research and that had me skeptical about the Black Ops links. However I found no complaints on any of the boards or forums about failures like the video. Yes when I received my Black Ops endlinks I tried the same procedure in the video with no such luck of separating the link from the bushing.

On the other end the BW endlinks had plenty of well documented complaints and issues, and helped make my decision easier. Just do a search and the most common issue that will come up is regular greasing required, bushing deterioration, bushing failure, etc. I drive a lot for work (Realtor) so reliability is more of a priority than performance. I almost placed an order for the BW endlinks until I searched on this forum and came across the Black Ops comparison thread. Thankfully I did see that in time before placing my order.

I have the Summit 4x4 Quadra lift as well. I'm planning on upgrading both front and rear sway bars + Black Ops endlinks, and throwing on Hawk rotors and HPS pads when I can schedule a shop date. I'm pretty sure I will be happy after that for an SUV. Not exactly the BMW 535 I gave up, but anything is an improvement over stock.

Your comments are interesting, however they also raise a couple of questions in my mind, the first being if you've installed the BlackOps links on your vehicle. If so, was there a noticeable difference in the roll stiffness?

I have a GC Limited, with the Quadra-Lift suspension, which has a 23MM rear sway bar as standard equipment. I recently replaced it with an SRT rear bar, which is approximately 0.070" thicker in OD. The difference, while subtle, is noticeable.

I'm not cheap, by any means, but before I spend $300 for a set of endlinks, I really want to know if they're going to actually do more that just look "trick". My desire to improve the handling of my GC is also somewhat compromised, as it's primary usage will be as a "winter driver". Ultimate cornering force isn't necessarily needed on a snow covered road, but is nice for those times when the roads dry out.

I'm presently 63 years of age, and have been a die-hard "car enthusiast" all of my life. Over the years, I've spent a considerable amount of money on aftermarket parts, in an effort to "improve" my vehicles. As you can imagine, some of it was money well spent, and some of it was simply wasted. At this point in my life, I want to minimize the waste.....
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:25 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

I think your main problem with handling is the QL. The QL is awesome for what it is....but IMHO its not built for handling/cornering. Theres a give and take in its capabilities. Its made to lower in sport mode and raise up to like 12" clearance for offroading.
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2015, 10:23 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottina06 View Post
I think your main problem with handling is the QL. The QL is awesome for what it is....but IMHO its not built for handling/cornering. Theres a give and take in its capabilities. Its made to lower in sport mode and raise up to like 12" clearance for offroading.

Yeah, I realize that's part of my problem, as well as part of my frustration. I live in the snow belt, and as previously mentioned, am going to use this GC primarily in the winter. IMHO, a limited slip rear axle is a necessity, to insure maximum winter traction. In a GC, the only way to get the LSD, is to order the ORA II package......as well as either the diesel V-6 or the Hemi V-8. I don't plan on any "off-roading", at least not on purpose, but that package was the only way to get the rear axle.

I don't understand why it isn't a "stand alone" option on a GC. Every other car/truck that I've owned, and special ordered, over the last 40 years, had an LSD either as standard or as an option....
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:44 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Sorry I'm still laughing about paying for long distance.
Someone needs to buy a cell phone.
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  #21  
Old 12-02-2015, 12:13 PM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

pay no attention to these crazy guys....LOL
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:48 PM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot4 View Post
Your comments are interesting, however they also raise a couple of questions in my mind, the first being if you've installed the BlackOps links on your vehicle. If so, was there a noticeable difference in the roll stiffness?

I have a GC Limited, with the Quadra-Lift suspension, which has a 23MM rear sway bar as standard equipment. I recently replaced it with an SRT rear bar, which is approximately 0.070" thicker in OD. The difference, while subtle, is noticeable.

I'm not cheap, by any means, but before I spend $300 for a set of endlinks, I really want to know if they're going to actually do more that just look "trick". My desire to improve the handling of my GC is also somewhat compromised, as it's primary usage will be as a "winter driver". Ultimate cornering force isn't necessarily needed on a snow covered road, but is nice for those times when the roads dry out.

I'm presently 63 years of age, and have been a die-hard "car enthusiast" all of my life. Over the years, I've spent a considerable amount of money on aftermarket parts, in an effort to "improve" my vehicles. As you can imagine, some of it was money well spent, and some of it was simply wasted. At this point in my life, I want to minimize the waste.....

Okay, since I’m brutally honest not many like it, It's a love hate thing you like me or hate me, no middle.

Here is what I tell everyone, I've spoken with the suspension engineer from SRT himself he said "I never understood the whole end-link need as the OEM does what they are supposed to do perfectly fine.” His words not mine once again, Scott as my Witness he was with me in NYAS.

So what I tell people who call: #1 If you want a full suspension do them!! Yes, they do make a slight difference but, other components are needed to continue to stiffen up the entire suspension in order to get the best performance. One performance part alone will not do that. #2 If you want your jeep to look good lowered and be done, don't waste your money.

So, yes, I sway them away from end-links because the difference is so minimal. I’d rather see them buy something that they can tell they spent money on, especially if they just want to go low and don't care about overall performance. Even my engineer said, “The difference from OEM is so minimal. You really need to set the entire suspension up for performance as one part makes a very minimal difference.” My Engineer also went on to say when we where lookig to build a better link "those are an OEM Downgrade" (Where my instagram post came from) Yes, I hurt my own sales and even with this post, I’m sure doesn’t matter though, as long as people understand what they are buying into. I have been saying the same thing since day one, selling them no secret there, anyone who has called me will tell you I told them the same.

I have some more on your post about articulation and solid mounts

I went and asked Proven Wicked his Opinion (He's an engineer so who better to ask right makes some of the baddest suspension for GM) here was his answer below!

"Side mounted bushings like those you posted are asking for rotation but, likely being constrained. An easy check would be removing the shock and seeing how easily the suspension can be moved throughout the range of travel without binding.”

This was his word for word no BS

On that note here is a picture to ponder, does this look like proper Articulation and proper suspension travel without binding? Crushing a busing?



People can say I talk S**T about other peoples stuff but, I just try to keep it honest and when I see BS I will try to share it and ^ has BS all over it, sometimes it works sometimes it hurts.

Lets now address the Youtube video, since I haven't yet publicly maybe I should have a long time ago.

B-Woody was making accusations publicly on forums and social media long before I made this post below on our instagram. When people were asking about the differences between his links and ours, he would go on and claim his where the best and we were an imposter. We should stick to making carbon fiber because, we had been saying his had the wrong geometry from day one . He claimed our bushings where made from the wrong material and the operating temp caused the studs to pop out. He also said, he knows first hand because he's used them before and they failed. (Even though my engineer designed the studs we knew it was all lies from day one.) Our studs do not and did not exist anywhere else at the time he was making these claims and even the energy engineers were blown away with the whole design done by my engineer!! They said, they wouldn’t even fit in the bushings because of tolerances. He went on to bash our links because they where aluminum and who makes end links out of aluminum and his are some steel, the strongest metal in the world showed welding certificates and suspension papers to legitimize his capabilities and to back his story. Again, he posted all of this all publicly on Instagram and forums when people were just asking the differences between his and mine. Instead of taking the high road and pointing out the mounting points, size, material etc. he decided to make up lies or what he thought were legitimate attacks at that time to benefit his sales because, he thought he knew what he we was talking about and acted like he had facts. Yet, today we still only point out the geometry because it’s wrong. His whole word “deflection" came right off my website. We watched him add that to his site about a month after our description of a end link on our website. I would love to take credit for the description but it was all written by my engineer on my website, can’t lie I’m no engineer.

To a social media crowd all sounded legit right?

So, enough was enough we went and posted a picture of there end-link bolt pulled through his link, in hopes to show people the bad geometry in defense of the bad publicity he was giving us in return. I received this picture from a customer who called me looking for our links after dealing with BWoody. He went on to say that there was grease all over his truck, it’s a mess and sent me a bunch of pictures. He stated he was wanting a refund which he was denied. Instead he was supplied a new bag of large washers to prevent the bolt from pulling through the link. But, not before his installer was blamed for installing them wrong even though he was supplied larger washers. Today, we now know there was a design change to twist on one end of the link to adjust the geometry to stop the busing from being squashed by the bolt. As you can see in the above image this is still happening on a lift on the ground anywhere and anytime the independent rear is in motion.

Here is the picture I posted, trying to keep them (BWoody) honest and also in defense of our product since it was surrounded with lies and false info, which is what I’m trying to explain here with you today




A lot of people where saying I should't post pictures like that and still have people say I talk S**T. They can talk because what that picture shows above is exactly what I'm saying to you above PERIOD, in a nut shell I’m not talking S**t. It's facts and it’s the opposite of what I intend. Most don't realize I was shown every time he talked smack socially and the post was more of a response Yes I was tired of the lies.

So what really happened as far as I can tell today with the video:

All of our links are numbered. When the youtube video shows up with the indetification # on them. It reveled who they were sold to so I contacted the buyer

I called the customer who links the # was sold to and asked this customer if he was happy?
He said, he got rid of all of all our stuff and B-Woody made him a deal he could't refuse (I bet). He said the last time he emailed me I was short with him (More on that below) that pissed him off. He felt like I blew him off and did not care. He said, maybe he should have stuck it out a little longer because we were taking care of him (speedy overnighted parts, emails and phone calls returned etc.). He said he knew it was all new stuff and that he had no complaints about service or warranty. He even thanked me for calling him with concern for the product to see if he was happy today but, after the trouble and the deal he received he had no choice but to change everything out.

So now I know he has all Bwoody stuff I asked the question. Did you make a video because I pissed you off?

His exact words “No way not me” I informed him his end-link identification # was in the video?
Do you know who made this video with his links? His Answer No but I did see the video (BTW it only had like 40 views and had just been posted two days before Hummm he already saw it Red Flag)
I asked who he sold them to his Answer: No idea, and went on to say that he could not recall what state they were sold to, what forum member, screen name, nor did he remember a first name Hummm Another RED FLAG. He said he would look and let me know but he thought he deleted all that info
I asked if he could look on PayPal. Seeing I’m sure he got paid for them right? No he doesn’t think it’s there either, guy sent a check 3rd red flag S**t is not adding up here even tho it kinda was.

I even called back a week later. No answer and I never did find out where they (Links) went even though I have a pretty good idea.

What we are almost certain of today, with our customers issues where and how the video was created and got all it’s content. Hence, all the bashing that had been going on social media starting to make sense.

We think our customer above either accidentally over torqued the studs and that is what we told him at the time not even knowing how studs look causing the threads to get ruined. We know today this or our material needed to be stronger or both. He also did have a stud pop out on him, he was concerned. It was his cold climate up north and the bushings material and operating temp was to blame. (Today we know that’s not the issue) It was an engineering issue.

So, I must have been busy when the customer emailed me to complain about studs for the second time and I replied "You are the only one with these issues I’ll send new studs again.”. I’m guessing he got mad with my short response. Like I said I was either busy and or maybe a little irritated seeing he had been sent studs once already because, he cross thread them the first time. We still sent him new studs for free on us. Warrantied them two times, even though it wasn’t our fault the first time and we now needed to send him more new studs. Yes, it was my fault as a vendor, I failed with my service and after this incident I make sure I pay a lot closer attention in the way I take complaints and listening to customers lesson learned

So by me now finding the customer with the link by the Identification # in the youtube video (who yes did have some issues mentioned above) all of the accusations being made publicly by Bwoody are starting to make sense and unravel, as to how he knew what he did early on with the postings on social media pages, was putting something together on his end all along.

The You tube video had almost every problem my customer had to a T, twisted to look major by Bwoody.
We now know today where the accusations and video stats all came from, our customer and his instagram page.
He also showed how they popped out our customers issue ( So everyone knows the Jeeps suspension do not articulate like that)
All seems legit in the video so far and dangerious, right?
The video also said something about over torque. (Remember above we told the customer he over torqued them?)

Well, that's where the video came from. So guess he won? I will not stoop to that level of making a video but I will speak the truth and show everyone facts. My engineer posted a long post on that Youtube video thread and it was deleted!! These where and still are his project only represented by us and he does have a reputation to uphold in his industry so this all kinda ran up is Butt more than mine it was a direct bash of him and his work and he explained that in the YouTube thrad diminishing every single claim in that video. He had all the operatig temps, tourque specs and a lot more probably a lot better than me here in this post LOL

PS: I should also mention he has since upgraded stud material four times, made the links differently, and today we are now on our 4th revision to make them better as we learn and get data and have 0 issues.
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Old 12-03-2015, 02:57 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadfoot4 View Post
Your comments are interesting, however they also raise a couple of questions in my mind, the first being if you've installed the BlackOps links on your vehicle. If so, was there a noticeable difference in the roll stiffness?

I have a GC Limited, with the Quadra-Lift suspension, which has a 23MM rear sway bar as standard equipment. I recently replaced it with an SRT rear bar, which is approximately 0.070" thicker in OD. The difference, while subtle, is noticeable.

I'm not cheap, by any means, but before I spend $300 for a set of endlinks, I really want to know if they're going to actually do more that just look "trick". My desire to improve the handling of my GC is also somewhat compromised, as it's primary usage will be as a "winter driver". Ultimate cornering force isn't necessarily needed on a snow covered road, but is nice for those times when the roads dry out.

I'm presently 63 years of age, and have been a die-hard "car enthusiast" all of my life. Over the years, I've spent a considerable amount of money on aftermarket parts, in an effort to "improve" my vehicles. As you can imagine, some of it was money well spent, and some of it was simply wasted. At this point in my life, I want to minimize the waste.....
No I have not installed them yet. So I can't provide an evaluation. I prefer to schedule a single shop day to take care of several upgrades at once, rather than take a day off per item to be installed. I just don't have much free time outside of work right now. So my next shop appointment will be upgrading: end links, sway bars, brake rotors, pads, fog lights, auxiliary led lights, wider tires, and adding interior LEDs under the dash. I hope they can get it done in 4 hours with a couple of techs.

I still need to purchase the front and rear sway bars and decide on brakes. I've been thinking about a full SRT8 Brembo conversion, I'm just considering the expense of replacement rotors since my driving habit tends to warp rotors on my BMW and Acura every 2 years. Brakes are typically the first upgrade I make on a new vehicle. With the Jeep being such a heavy SUV, I'm still trying to make a decision on brakes.

My ideas of the endlinks and the suspension is each part is just a component of a system. One item will not make a dramatic difference, it will take a combination of parts. That is why I want the front and rear sway bars together with the endlinks. I'm not trying to make the Jeep drive like my BMW, I know that's impossible. My main priority is to get rid of the 'wobble and rocking' when going over bumps. I can't stand it and the first time I hit a bump in the Jeep going 30 mph I almost thought I was going to lose control and go up the curb. I think that is an unacceptable flaw for a $45k vehicle.

I do agree with you that they are a significant expense. However like you I'm not into flashy pretty upgrades. I expect results and improvements, but I understand the limits of the vehicle before upgrades are made. A few minor improvements and combination of components will hopefully make a significant difference when they all work together. I'm not cheap either, and I don't want to toss money on problems that cannot be improved. So I'm willing to spend about $2k on end links, sway bars, and brakes since I think the total combination will be a significant improvement. That same logic may justify a Ripp Supercharger in the next year if I can still live with the 'wobble and rocking' over bumps.

I also agree with Black Ops response on this post, it's not going to make a major difference for such a single small component. But it adds to the big picture I'm hoping to improve. I like Black Ops 'brutal honesty'. And again I like that they delayed my order for quality control rather than ship me what they had.

I would research this forum for "end links" "bwoody" and "black ops" to come to your own conclusion like I did. The BW parts had so many complaints that I initially decided to pass on upgrading end links all together. I had actually contacted them to verify they had them in stock the day before I changed my mind. I happen to search bwoody and the keyword was in a thread comparing bwoody end links to Black Ops in a complete photo review. That was the first time I had ever heard of Black Ops, but all the positive reviews and feedback was promising. I then did more research on Black Ops, read the testimonials, tried to verify the video and found no actual complaints of that problem yet here, read a thread documenting installation did not require drilling larger holes like the BW end link bolts did, and felt pretty comfortable about their products and their development and quality. Feedback for both brands are well documented on this forum.

Most likely I will finish ordering everything by February 2016 and install soon after that. I've got about $60k in property taxes and insurance due in Jan, then another major chunk for income taxes due. I'll spend what's left after all that to reward myself and avoid tax depression.

You will probably make a decision and install before I do.
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:31 AM
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Re: What's the deal with BWoody Performance?

"Black Ops", good post and thanks for the information! Like you, I'm a results oriented, and "no BS" kind of guy............
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