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  #49  
Old 07-27-2011, 08:53 AM
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I'm not even gonna continue with this conversation with members talking down to other members. For all we know youre internet jockeys spurting bullshit you've read on wiki. I posted actual experience and if you can't except that......I dont know what else to say. They are the facts as I know them.
I posted facts from the same exact vehicle, same setup except for the calipers and rotors.....and you offer experiences in two totally different cars from different makers.....lol. move on....




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  #50  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:29 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

In that case, please do leave this conversation because you have nothing to provide factually. I take the scientific method and actual PHYSICS seriously. I have tracked my car several times and have real world results supported by scientific theory. Spend some time at a racetrack then we can continue this conversation. Hopefully you can ACCEPT that.

As much as I shudder to reference Car and Driver as a source, please see the following exhibit to prove my point

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...38a98dc8e1.pdf

As you can see - not just by anectode, but by actual testing by a 3rd party the first set of brake distances are all pretty much equal then you start seeing performance gains at high speed 3x and 25x stops. but the greatest proof is the 70-0 no ABS panic stop - all within feet of each other. and to completely put the nail in the coffin of your anecdotal "proof", the stock was the best performer for the 40-0 test, NOT the big brake kits.

Your defense that we're talking about different cars and different setups and different makers is completely moot. Your "test" was hardly a scientific test with the same variables. Even the C/D test shows only a 4-7ft difference when it comes panic braking, no where near the 20 you are "experiencing".

Brakes and tires all follow the same exact principles my friend, your experience will do nothing to change the laws of physics. The only thing contacting your car to the Earth are your tires. If you want to improve panic stopping or everyday stopping power, then look no further than your tires. If you're constantly stopping from 70-0 or are towing a rig through the mountains, then you'll actually benefit from the bigger brakes. Otherwise you can go ahead and enjoy your $3,000 painted calipers with matching stickers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottina06 View Post
I'm not even gonna continue with this conversation with members talking down to other members. For all we know youre internet jockeys spurting bullshit you've read on wiki. I posted actual experience and if you can't except that......I dont know what else to say. They are the facts as I know them.
I posted facts from the same exact vehicle, same setup except for the calipers and rotors.....and you offer experiences in two totally different cars from different makers.....lol. move on....




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  #51  
Old 07-29-2011, 05:34 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Cross drilled rotors are fine for road use, as long as the holes are cast into the rotors, not drilled. If they are drilled, it can cause a weakness in the rotor and can cause cracks. My car has the Brembo cross drilled rotors and they have never given me any problems. I do understand that in race applications they can fail, but I am not worried for the road.
This is why we see the cross drilled rotors on road cars and rarely on race cars.
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  #52  
Old 07-29-2011, 09:01 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Glad we agree on the bigger != shorter stopping distances debate.

As for the xdrilled debate, this for me is not set in stone. I'm interested in the testing that SAE did to see what sort of performance gains were netted from the xdrilled brakes. You're right in saying that xdrilling was originally developed to allow a space for the degassing of pad material, however newer pads do not exhibit this problem. Now on to the debate of xdrilling:

xdrilling creates a larger surface area for brake cooling, but a lower surface area for brake biting. Curved Vaned rotors from what I know exhibit a much better cooling behavior compared to xdrilled. Did SAE test straight vaned rotors or curved vaned rotors when they did their xdrilling? Unless originally designed as such, you cannot really xdrill a curved vaned rotor since you'll be destroying the vanes.

From what i've gathered the majority of race cars use curved vaned rotors. Personally i like slotted rotors because they bite like hell and work well with my pad combination (Endless pads) and application. They also allow me to run curved vaned rotors for better cooling. I know a lot of big name brake makers including OE applications use xdrilled with great results. But i'm curious to see the testing you referenced.

Yes - xdrilling has a lot of physics variables which I cannot definitively conclude on like i can with braking distances (but we agree on that point). But from my "experience", I've seen too many cracked rotors due to improper xdrilling or extreme heat cycling to recommend them with the exception of OE or specd designs. and again, 99% of us reading this forum probably won't see the benefit between xdrilled rotors compared to flat rotors - so yes for 99% of those getting them really are to get panties on the floor! hahaha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
You seem to be very knowlegable on brakes and braking systems and for the most part I agree with almost all of what you have stated. I chose not to get involved in the performance discussion of SRT Jeep Brembo braking systems mainly because I have had zero first had experience with them and I like to speak from experience not internet posted misinformation! Yes I agree Brembo makes some very nice OEM and aftermarket braking systems but their products are far from the best or end-all be-all when it comes to performance braking systems.

That being said I have had had alot of experience with higher end braking systems on my fourth generation Corvette and hi-performance motorcycle's. First off you are correct that an aggressive pad material and S/S lines are the cheapest, and best way to improve braking performance on any vehicle, but it is your tires that will have the greatest effect on reducing stopping distances. The stickier the tire, the better your brakes will perform.... until they get heat-soaked and fade, leading to failure. Big brakes are better able to dissipate the heat generated from repeated high speed stops and will perform better under these conditions as you have correctly stated. The larger "duty cycle" and greater efficiency of a bigger brake setup (like the Brembo's being discussed in this thread) is a performance improvement over the regular WK2 brake setup without question.

Now on to where we disagree.......Cross-drilled rotors, you imply that cross-drilling is a braking performance myth, one that may damage the rotor or the pads and does nothing to increase braking performance. That may be your opinion but it too, is not based in fact, or science. Brake rotors do their job by dissipating the heat produced from braking, in effect they are large circular heat sinks and to work effectively they must lose the heat they gather after braking. When they cannot be cooled enough after long, hard, repeated stops, your brakes will begin to fail. Since all modern vehicle rotors are ventillated and air cooled with circular pillar vanes that force air though the rotor as it spins, the use of cross-drilling will increase rotor ventillation which helps cooling efficiency, as well as dealing with any pad out gassing that may occur. (Even if out gassing isn't the issue it once was with newer, better, pad friction materials available today). Cross-drilling will also help braking in heavy rain, or water crossing, allowing brake pads to fully contact the rotor in these conditions, conditions that every steeet drivin Jeep might encounter. Remember nobody is racing their Jeep, heavy towing in hilly conditions, water crossing and or heavy rain are things a Jeeper may encounter that cross-drilled rotors will provide a braking improvement over solid blanks preferred by racers. The SAE (society of automotive engineers) did a study on cross-drilled rotors and found them to increase braking performance across the board on all applications they tested! Street testing on the road not on a racetrack! Do a search and read it for yourself! Now if your inclined to dismiss the SAE, what about the engineers that design and build braking systems at every major automobile manufacturer in the world. When they want the very best in braking they always choose to equip their very best vehicles with cross-drilled rotors! Engineers at Mercedes, Porche, Lamborgini, Astin Martin, Chevy (ZO6 & ZR1 vettes), Ferrari, Buggatti...... ect all choose cross-drilled rotors as OEM parts! Do you think they do that for looks? The added bling factor? Or possibly for the increased performance these cross-drilled rotors provide??

Lets not forget the aftermarket. Braking engineers at manufacturers like Baer, Brembo, Wilwood, AP Racing, Movit,.... the best brake manufacturers in the world......ect all use cross-drilling for their very best rotors. Why do you think that is? For the added bling factor? Because "chicks dig 'em"? Or possibly because cross-drilling has been found to increase braking performance enough to employ it on all of their very best products.
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  #53  
Old 07-30-2011, 01:18 AM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by frydryce View Post
In that case, please do leave this conversation because you have nothing to provide factually. I take the scientific method and actual PHYSICS seriously. I have tracked my car several times and have real world results supported by scientific theory. Spend some time at a racetrack then we can continue this conversation. Hopefully you can ACCEPT that.

As much as I shudder to reference Car and Driver as a source, please see the following exhibit to prove my point

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...38a98dc8e1.pdf

As you can see - not just by anectode, but by actual testing by a 3rd party the first set of brake distances are all pretty much equal then you start seeing performance gains at high speed 3x and 25x stops. but the greatest proof is the 70-0 no ABS panic stop - all within feet of each other. and to completely put the nail in the coffin of your anecdotal "proof", the stock was the best performer for the 40-0 test, NOT the big brake kits.

Your defense that we're talking about different cars and different setups and different makers is completely moot. Your "test" was hardly a scientific test with the same variables. Even the C/D test shows only a 4-7ft difference when it comes panic braking, no where near the 20 you are "experiencing".

Brakes and tires all follow the same exact principles my friend, your experience will do nothing to change the laws of physics. The only thing contacting your car to the Earth are your tires. If you want to improve panic stopping or everyday stopping power, then look no further than your tires. If you're constantly stopping from 70-0 or are towing a rig through the mountains, then you'll actually benefit from the bigger brakes. Otherwise you can go ahead and enjoy your $3,000 painted calipers with matching stickers.

Thanks for being the cool guy who has to come on here and immediately start the underhanded comments and putdowns. Your so cool.

But for your info...we are talking Jeeps here...not the BS that you posted. Do you have ANY experience with these Jeeps? At the track? Street? Etc? I can accept the car and driver numbers posted....even though its coming from an advertising rag. But theres no info in the link provided to what type of car those tests were done on??? Exact same conditions etc etc.

Theres 0 info posted by YOU to back anything you have posted. Id like to see that since youre so into "scientific method and physics." BUt...I will say i have no problems with the info you posted or are laying out. BUT...have you seen the incredibly crappy braking system of the nonSRT WK? Do you have any experiences with any of that? Have you driven a 2005-2010 nonSRt wk? On the street? At the track? I also NEVER said that larger calipers are better or stop shorter than smaller calipers. I just posted my experience in switching from the 2 pot front and 1 pot rear nonsrt wk brakes to the 4 pot front and 2 pot rear wk srt brakes. I can honestly say the "brake balance" was shifted and it improved the stopping distance on the exact same Jeep and setup suspension wise as before. Brake balance is just as important as the tires. Front to rear brake bias is just as important. Sure...my testing wasnt exactly scientific....but can the scientists really put together the perfect testing scenario? Same amount of pad life, tire tread, conditions are exactly the same? The human driver and human errors? Maybe a tire hit a rock or dust and changed the results. maybe it was 5 degrees warmer or the wind was blowing 1 mph head or tail wind?
Maybe my testing was off? Lets just say half of 20 ft then....10ft? Would 10 ft make a difference in an accident scenario or track situation?

And thanks for telling everyone what i spent on my brake setup! Im so glad you hacked my computer and saw the receipts. Knowing my setup...you must know me. So who are you?
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  #54  
Old 07-30-2011, 03:29 AM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Now you sir, have lost all credibility whatsoever. Before this post I thought you also had more braking knowlege and experience than the average internet poster but sadly that is now obviously not true!

I challege you or anyone else to find ONE (1) manufacturer that "casts" holes into a rotor, any rotor!!!!!!! Isn't done, has never been done!!

You will not find one, never, ever, ever!!

Every rotor manufacturer drills or machines the cross-drilling into their rotors. EVERY LAST ONE!

Now this is a process that when done correctly on rotors that were designed to be cross-drilled, chamfered, and or machined can yield braking performance gains for street driving. Simply cross-drilling rotors not designed to be cross-drilled can be dangerous (See cheap E-bay x-drilled rotors for examples) These cheap E-bay rotors are drilled into cast cooling vains weakening the rotors and compromizing their ability to dissapate heat the way they were designed to. For an excellent example of cross-drilled rotors that have been designed for proper cross-drilled machining check out hi-end rotors manufactured by Baer or Wilwood.
You are correct, Brembo machine their's but many cheaper ones are drilled.
Since you are such an expert, what is your view on this topic ?
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  #55  
Old 07-30-2011, 12:10 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
OK............. I really shouldn't but............. Please do tell how the "shape" of the inside of one OEM 20" wheel is somehow different the the "shape" of another OEM 20" wheel??

This is going be good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you run 4-sided blocks for wheels on your rig?
The shape of the spokes of the wheel is what he means. Wheel needs thin concave spokes to clear those massive calipers not flat fat spokes like the factory 20s have.
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  #56  
Old 07-30-2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator2 View Post
The shape of the spokes of the wheel is what he means. Wheel needs thin concave spokes to clear those massive calipers not flat fat spokes like the factory 20s have.
That's exactly what I was saying, Glad some people can comprehend a simple statement without arguing and swinging their dick around about "track" experience... blah blah blah...
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  #57  
Old 07-30-2011, 02:41 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

there are tons of people that race here EVERY weekend on either road courses or 1/4 mile tracks. I had my Jeep out this morning with a local enthusiast club on a closed road course. The fastest Jeep SRT8 in the world is here and one member...BJB is building a 1/4 mile only race Jeep...check out the thread BDCarma.
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  #58  
Old 07-30-2011, 03:04 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Well if your "racing your Jeep" on a road course solid or slotted rotors might be the way go.

And if you want to race...... why would you choose to race a heavy Jeep SUV????

If you really want to go fast may I suggest a different vehicle then racing an underpowered and way too fat Jeep SUV, but to each his own!

I didnt say I was racing my Jeep.........


why do you care what i do with my Jeep? Why does anyone do what they do with anything? Theres always bigger, better, faster, smarter etc etc. Who gives you the right to criticize anyone? What do you drive? Are you on the nascar circuit? Indy racing league? pro drift? Funny cars? etc? If not...why waste your time with your current vehicle? Upgrade to one of those......

some people blow my mind......

but to each his own.....
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  #59  
Old 07-30-2011, 04:09 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

the attacking was DONE by your PETTINESS! Its been your attitude since your first post! Go elsewhere......TROLL!

No nerve struck here.,....I just dont understand why you CARE what ANYONE else does with their own vehicles? Its none of your ****ing BUSINESS! And no...we werent racing...we enjoy driving in an aggressive manner..... and not putting the public in harms way. dick

Did you pay for my PHONY? hell no....troll.

If you must know...i modded the Jeep when my 10 yr old son DIED in an accident! It passed the time and keep my mind off of that....asshole!
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Old 07-30-2011, 04:22 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Actually is not the "shape" of the wheel spokes at all, every wheel made needs to be able to clear the knuckle/spindle and the rotor/caliper assembly. Yes, They need to be able to clear the knuckle/spindle and rotor/caliber assembly that they are made for. Overland wheels weren't made to clear the Brembo rotor/caliper assembly. And nobody said they knew for sure. It's crazy to assume they will work. It's just logical to assume there will be interference. There are many cases of aftermarket wheels not clearing the Brembos on the first generation SRT8.

It's the backspacing of said wheel that will determine if it will rotate without any interference problems. Sure, you could buy wheels with different backspacing, But they will stick out passed the fender. But that's not what we're talking about. The overland wheels aren't something you can order with a different backspacing. You could achieve the same thing with wheel spacers, but again... they're stick out passed the fender. Either way you look at it, there's reason to question if Overland wheels will clear the Brembos.
.
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