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  #73  
Old 09-09-2011, 04:23 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose City GC SRT8 View Post
I, for one, believe 100% that Scottina06 experienced dramatically shorter stopping distances with the SRT8 Brembo setup.

What Frydryce did not take into account is that the SRT8 rotors are 360mm in diameter vs. 328mm for the standard WK. The greater diameter of the rotor pushes the pads farther out towards the leading edge of the wheel. As rotor diameter increases, it becomes easier and easier to slow a spinning wheel due to a simple rule of physics called leverage. The increase in swept area means the pad need less friction for a given deceleration and is able to generate a higher peak deceleration.

Chrysler put huge 380mm rotors on the WK2 SRT8 because it has gotten obese and needed stronger brakes.

The downside to larger diameter rotors is an increase in heat generated by the larger swept area. Hence, SRT went with six pistons to better withstand heat and lessen fade. They should have gone to eight pistons for what they charge for the new model. And yes, Frydryce, I would agree with you that if Chrysler went with eight pistons vs. six, the stopping distance would not have changed. It is rotor diameter that shortens stopping distance, not number of pistons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by soontobesrt View Post
Wow, interesting thread lol! Bravo!

BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE: READ THIS:
http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2...ake_myth_1.htm

My thoughts follow:

Scott dont let the trolls get to ya. Someone will always be in here with no post history talking up a storm about something they think they know a lot about haha, maybe it was, Rick G???? Who remembers him lol

Anyway quoting some of what RoseCity said above about large rotors I have a few points to make clear based on things Ive learned over some time with brakes and track days etc. Beyond simply larger surface area and heat dissipation, large calipers will equate to large surface pressure area. The more pistons or the more piston surface area will simply mean more pad surface pressure against the rotor which will equate to more force pulling on the wheel. So it is logical and follows traditional thinking in a sense. More surface area and more force will equal a faster slowing of the wheel but then it ALL COMES BACK TOT HE TIRE. Thats always the final factor and hopefully not the limiting one.

I have to say though there are many other factors beyond this that affect stopping forces and distances. Slotted/C/D rotors are another subject touched on a little in here. But in my mind, surface area is they key concept in all this. The more rotor the better as long as it can dissipate heat effectively so it can retain its chemical compound so that the pads can still bite on the rotors. Thusly why race cars use the Carbon Ceramics and also there are some fancy silicon/carbide pads and other types or fancy pads that deal well with head But thats another debate for another day

Anyway regarding Scotts info and tests: I know you posted all your old info about the stopping distances and ANYONE WITH A BRAIN can tell you going from a stock braking setup to the LARGER BREMBO SETUP WILL DECREASE STOPPING DISTANCES (if and only if) the tires you are running are NOT the limiting factor - Basically just means that the tires have more grip available for a higher input pressure form the calipers on the rotors.

SO BASED ON THIS: If the tires you had on your truck at the time you swapped brakes (had some headroom for stopping pressures - as far as the breaking wheel slip limit goes) THEN THE BIG BRAKE KIT WOULD DECREASE STOPPING DISTANCES. This is assuming IDENTICAL conditions of course as that is big factor as well. So, Id say pending you had decent tires with a solid rubber compound and good surface area and the days you did the test were identical in an identical location then the kit WOULD (AND CLEARLY DID) DECREASE STOPPING DISTANCES.

This goes on to prove that MOST of the time, a big break kit WILL HELP stopping as long as your tires have the ability to stop faster without slipping and activating ABS - thats how you know, slam the breaks does ABS come on? The the wheel was slipping, brand new set of tires mine never comes on, but thats basically how you know

As far as the original topic in here about upgrading I can tell you this: (as mentioned many times in here)
You NEED the SRT spindle so you can MOUNT THE CALIPERS. Without those well, you'll be in a river somewhere
You also NEED a wheel with SRT offset specs because of the huge caliper. I dont know what the argument was about??? Its been proven not to fit (engineer said so)


Beyond the parts needed for the swap, the reasons to do it are obvious. Beyond less stooping distances, Brembos WILL NOT FADE nearly as much as OEM brakes so anyone driving fast/hard on the street or tracking will really notice the differences. These are reasons to get the kit.

I knew Id benefit as my tires were brand new and that most tires out there (thatd Id buy) are well capable of taking advantage of the bigger brakes, I mean the tire manufactures know these kits exists and go figure, so many cars come with OEM big brake kits and have a brand name tire! How about that.

As someone who loves physics I understand what leverage is, but again, that has nothing to do with how a car stops and its INITIAL stopping distance. Say for a given inertia of an object you have a fixed Torque value that will lock the brakes and stop them from moving all together, lets call that TQ. Now the leverage formula is TQ=Fd where TQ is the torque applied at a certain point (spindle), distance is the distance from the point (rotor diameter), and F is the force applied at that distance (pad material - coefficient of friction is the main determining factor here)

So since the TQ required to lock a wheel at a given speed is a fixed value, all you do when you increase d is decrease F. So this is where you get that sensation that less pedal effort equates to more force and "better braking".

Locking a brake can be done with pretty much any sized caliper/rotor within reason.

Another point for more pistons - it is not necessarily to decrease heat/resist fade, more pistons = more surface area against the brake pad. if you've ever taken apart a caliper then you'll see that all that touches the pad is a cylinder. The more cylinders you use the more surface area from said cylinders can be applied to the pad and therefore be transferred onto the rotor. more even application of force = better efficiency = better braking performance. the generation of less heat is merely a byproduct of this since heat is more evenly being dissipated then less peak temperatures will be seen in the system. (as we all know einstein - energy cannot be created/destroyed only transferred) the energy to stop a vehicle remains constant, but if you can spread that energy over a larger surface area then it will more rapidly transfer from the pad/rotor to air.

again other than my scientific knowledge of how stuff works coupled with my real track experience coupled with proof from C/D in the article i posted, i can't really explain much more how big brakes will stop you any better than stock for the first stop. subsequent stops from 70-0 is another story, but if you're doing that on your commute i either commend you or am damn scared of you

lastly, before you insult people based on their post count maybe you should think that this isn't my first car, nor my 2nd, nor my 3rd. but yes, its my first jeep, but physics still remains the same unless Chryslyer, MBZ, or Fiat figured out a way to break those laws, then I stand corrected. i'm willing to wager good money i've spent more time behind the wheel at a track, or under a car, or in the engine bay, or wrenching, etc than you have combined. Respect should be based on the eloquence and intelligence of each post, not because of a stupid post count number.

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  #74  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:22 AM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Frydryce, if you took the calipers on your Jeep and adapted them to 11" rotors, you would have greatly increased stopping distances. Period. If you adapted those same calipers to 15" rotors, your stopping distance would decrease.

Locking up a wheel under braking is irrelevant to stopping distance, just a measure of the grip of the tire to the road. It is the torque that can be applied to the wheel near the threshold of lockup that shortens stopping distance. This is determined primarily by rotor diameter. Secondly, the kinetics of friction are very important.

You can lock your wheels up with drum brakes, but who would want them on any new car?
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  #75  
Old 09-10-2011, 09:52 AM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

^As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, larger rotors, larger/increased pistons & pads, and resulting improved heat management will also greatly improve modulation, feel, and fade. For daily and spirited driving OFF the track, I have no interest in standing on the pedal until ABS kicks in and the tires reach their breakaway point.

Shortened stopping distances are another bonus, again for DD, no pedal mashing.
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  #76  
Old 09-11-2011, 08:56 AM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

All I can say is many people on this thread need to understand that the TYRE is the determining factor in braking distance PERIOD.

The biggest brakes in the world WILL NOT SHORTEN THE STOPPING DISTANCE WITHOUT GRIP FROM THE TYRES, this is what provides the stopping distance determination.

If your standard brakes can activate the ABS, this is the MAXIMUM braking force required to reach the limit of the tyres, bigger brakes will not make any benefit to better stopping distance only to better heat dissipation.

Rose city, if you had bicycle tyres on your Jeep would bigger rotors decrease the stopping distance ? I do not think so, so your theory is wrong.

I do not know why I bother to even continue this discussion as people will believe what they want and not what is right.
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  #77  
Old 09-11-2011, 09:43 AM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

^the tire variable was correctly established and agreed upon as a constant early on in this thread
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:51 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Enforcer, by you own logic, if you put the WK2 SRT8 wheels and TIRES on your 3.0L WK2, it will have the same braking distance as the WK2 SRT8. In fact, the WK2 SRT8 will exhibit dramatically shorter stopping distances than your rig. Even if it is just one stop with no heat in the rotors and calipers. It is because of those huge 380mm rotors. Larger rotors shorten stopping distances and multiple-piston calipers (with pads of much greater surface area) help manage the additional heat generated by the increased leverage.

Please understand the physics of the friction materials involved. Given that you have appropriately sized tires with good traction, brake pads will lose their ability to lever against the rotor as you approach lockup. Tires are not the limiting factor here (again assuming the right tires are being used). The friction materials are. Put another way, it is the transfer of kinetic energy into heat by the friction materials that is the limiting factor. Tire technology can slow a vehicle much better than current braking technology.

As you approach the pressure necessary to achieve lockup, brake pads begin to reach their thermal/friction limits and lose their ability to lever against the rotor. So if you apply more pressure for additional braking, the rotor simply locks up. It is the ability of the friction materials to continue to provide leverage against the rotor as you approach lockup that determines braking. Bigger rotors, providing the pads are increased in surface area, can transfer more kinetic energy before the pads reach thermal/friction limits.
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  #79  
Old 09-11-2011, 02:49 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Guys I don't want to add fuel to any "side". I really appreciate the discussion in this thread.

Can we summarize all this way?

If you have a very good tires with very good grip, you can benefit from bigger rotors only if those bigger rotors, and calipers, and pistons, and pads are designed to work optimally with each other, like in a Brembo Kit (hopefully!)

If you don't have very good tires, no brake upgrade will improve your breaking distance. You will only benefit from an increase in breaking performance useful only for multiple breaking scenarios (not a single 70-0 brake) or like when you are towing and need to press those pedals for more time given the added weight, for example, and you need a rapid heat dissipation to maintain you breaking performance and thus not allowing your breaking distance to increase.

I am truly interested in improving my braking distance as stated in my first post in this thread.

So far I know I must start upgrading my factory tires. After that, a Brembo Kit with bigger rotors or to change my rotors and calipers to those of the Limited and Overland V8s. I have a V6 70th that is basically a Laredo, and as far as I know I don't have the HD brakes. Last but not least, my upgrade (breaking performance) will improve my breaking distance if my upgraded tires maintain the grip.

I missed something or stated something wrong?
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:53 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

from what a few are saying...all you need to do is upgrade to high performance, grippy tires....NO brembos or high performance brakes needed. The stock WK2 brakes and super sticky tires will stop you better than the SRt brembos
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:47 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Wait a sec.... Where did Mako and all his posts go? Lol
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:02 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose City GC SRT8 View Post
Enforcer, by you own logic, if you put the WK2 SRT8 wheels and TIRES on your 3.0L WK2, it will have the same braking distance as the WK2 SRT8. In fact, the WK2 SRT8 will exhibit dramatically shorter stopping distances than your rig. Even if it is just one stop with no heat in the rotors and calipers. It is because of those huge 380mm rotors. Larger rotors shorten stopping distances and multiple-piston calipers (with pads of much greater surface area) help manage the additional heat generated by the increased leverage.

Please understand the physics of the friction materials involved. Given that you have appropriately sized tires with good traction, brake pads will lose their ability to lever against the rotor as you approach lockup. Tires are not the limiting factor here (again assuming the right tires are being used). The friction materials are. Put another way, it is the transfer of kinetic energy into heat by the friction materials that is the limiting factor. Tire technology can slow a vehicle much better than current braking technology.

As you approach the pressure necessary to achieve lockup, brake pads begin to reach their thermal/friction limits and lose their ability to lever against the rotor. So if you apply more pressure for additional braking, the rotor simply locks up. It is the ability of the friction materials to continue to provide leverage against the rotor as you approach lockup that determines braking. Bigger rotors, providing the pads are increased in surface area, can transfer more kinetic energy before the pads reach thermal/friction limits.
I am saying exactly that if you put the sticky SRT8 tyres and wheels on my rig, it will stop the same as a SRT8. You are wrong about your theory on the friction size of the rotors, as the limits of the tyre will affect the braking well before the friction size of the disk.
If the HD brakes on my JGC can reach the limits of the SRT8 tyres by being able to engage the ABS, which means it has reached the limit of the tyres traction, then my car will stop at the same distance as the SRT8, allowing for minor weight and suspension variables between the SRT8 and my Jeep. The big brakes will have no effect on a single stop. This is because both brakes can exceed the traction limits of the tyres, the tyres are the limiting force, not the brakes, why can you not see this simple fact of physics ?

I am glad to see that people are starting to see this fact.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:15 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

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Originally Posted by Scottina06 View Post
from what a few are saying...all you need to do is upgrade to high performance, grippy tires....NO brembos or high performance brakes needed. The stock WK2 brakes and super sticky tires will stop you better than the SRt brembos
Yes, unless you overheat the stock brakes. If you put the SRT8 tyres on a stock JGC and the JGC tyres on a SRT8, the stock JGC will stop in a shorter distance than the SRT8 only because of the tyres.

The better the tyres, the more it will heat up the brakes. I bet if you put slicks on the SRT8, you will cook the brakes after a few laps, yet the road rubber that the SRT8 comes with is a balanced match.

Same if you put SRT8 tyres on a stock JGC you will cook these brakes faster than the SRT8 brakes, because they dissipate the heat better due to the larger surface area of the rotors.

Scott you should email your Jeep engineers and get them to comment on this thread to give you their opinion. You might be surprised about who is correct.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:49 PM
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Re: WK2 SRT Brembo brake kit on an Overland

I have done the exact as you describe above......and you are wrong. I described it a couple pages back and its FACT. My Jeep was a 2006 Laredo with a V8. I have added all the SRt stuff. I bought all the parts for the SRT Brembo conversion in early 2007. I did several tests on my exact Jeep I have now(minus the brembo conversion)...full SRT conversion with 20" SRT wheels and Goodyear Runflats. I then did the conversion in about 4 hours...went straight out in almost the same temps....same road and tested the Brembo converted Jeep. The Jeep stopped significantly shorter. FACT.
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