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  #25  
Old 10-12-2015, 09:40 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

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Originally Posted by David360 View Post
Appreciate your very detailed posts on your installation.

Do you think it would be at all possible to install the tweeters without trimming the ring? From the mechanical drawings it looks like the threaded portion should fit through the OEM opening with just the ring sitting outside the enclosure, although hanging over to some degree. Since I'll be doing the install DIY I'm a little reluctant to start trimming the tweeters myself.
Greetings,

Unfortunately, you have to trim the tweeters to get as close as possible for the proper output of the sound waves.

If you have access or have a bench vise, just clamp an edge in. With a dremmel or any other cut off tool for metal, slow go around the rim and take off a little at a time. No need to rush. It is the same method I used when I had to retro fit speaker into cabinets.

Make sure you order the caps for the tweeters to prevent them from blowing out. I not sure, but I think they give to you now.

Best for now.

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  #26  
Old 10-12-2015, 10:41 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

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Originally Posted by 1stJeepGC View Post
Greetings,

Unfortunately, you have to trim the tweeters to get as close as possible for the proper output of the sound waves.

If you have access or have a bench vise, just clamp an edge in. With a dremmel or any other cut off tool for metal, slow go around the rim and take off a little at a time. No need to rush. It is the same method I used when I had to retro fit speaker into cabinets.

Make sure you order the caps for the tweeters to prevent them from blowing out. I not sure, but I think they give to you now.

Best for now.
Just so I'm clear, the edge ot the tweeter ring should match as close as possible to the edge of the plastic? I don't have much experience in how to get proper sound wave output.

I thought I read in a couple of other threads that the Alpine tweeters already had caps in the wiring that guys were using and not adding anything further. I will be running these off the Alpine amp for now. Should I be replacing the Alpine caps?
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  #27  
Old 10-13-2015, 07:51 AM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Greetings,

You want to get the tip of the tweeter, which is the cone right by the edge of the fabric. Just leave enough space so that is 1/8 or a 1/4 if you do not want to rim that much off. The dynomat went on the metal rim after we shaved to eliminate any openings and prevent metal vibrations. So you have plenty of metal to work with before you hit the fabric edge.



If you notice on the picture above of the L1 Pro R2, the rim of the tweeter has shaving marks. We got to the 1/8 mark. The small set back will not interfere with the overall output of sound.

As for the caps on the Alpine tweeter, my 2011 did not have them. The cap is a bass blocker. If you do not get them now, when you reach the phase for the amplification, then I recommend it as safety precaution against spikes during the initial setup.

Best for now.
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  #28  
Old 10-13-2015, 02:00 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

What a GREAT write-up...thank you! I have a 14' with the 19-speaker system...have you heard a WK2 with that system? Main reason I ask is the system is great, but I feel like it is missing something...overall, for a stock system I am satisfied...just wondering if you have any recommendations that are not a complete system overhaul, but maybe some speaker upgrades? Can I upgrade the amp and some speakers without doing all 19? Any thoughts are greatly encouraged as you clearly know your audio!!
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  #29  
Old 10-13-2015, 07:48 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Quote:
Originally Posted by 08Hemi View Post
What a GREAT write-up...thank you! I have a 14' with the 19-speaker system...have you heard a WK2 with that system? Main reason I ask is the system is great, but I feel like it is missing something...overall, for a stock system I am satisfied...just wondering if you have any recommendations that are not a complete system overhaul, but maybe some speaker upgrades? Can I upgrade the amp and some speakers without doing all 19? Any thoughts are greatly encouraged as you clearly know your audio!!
Greetings,

Thank you.

Yes, I have heard the HK briefly and just a few times. Their is a nice thread here if you did not come across it already with discussions on the pros and cons. As of this date it is about 11 pages:

From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

The problem with any Premium Sound System from FCA, IMHO, they cut back on achieving the true performance capabilities. Is this a money issue, who knows. All their systems are geared for the general public. Plus the fact they do not give enough access to tuning.

In any event, the main 2 issues I have with the system is the placement of mid range drives which are coaxial and the rear door tweeter. The JGC really work great with only 1 pair of tweeters for the SQ surround sound setup. Who needs a tweeter right in back of your ear. The midrange driver is simple put in the wrong place and defeats the purpose. It right my your shoulder. These issues result offsetting the staging sequences.

Another issue overlooked is the quality of the headunit. Even through it is designed by Harman, it is not a mid or high unit. The middle range aftermarket HU are far better than the stock. And this applies to both the Alpine and HK. You are better off not even getting SirusXM and paying for the premium apps such as Spotify, Aupeo and etc. At least this way you get better sound quality from source.

As for recommendations for speaker upgrades, I would disconnect the rear door tweeter and front door mids first. If you feel if the rear door mids need to go, then eliminated them. You can follow the upgrade that member DAVID360 is performing and take in phases to fix the critical front stage. If the 10 inch sub goes down low enough for you, then that is ok. Other than that, I can not see any other thing to do unless you go for complete upgrade. It is matter of how much musical quality to you want to stride for.

Best for now.
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  #30  
Old 10-16-2015, 11:40 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stJeepGC View Post
Greetings,

You want to get the tip of the tweeter, which is the cone right by the edge of the fabric. Just leave enough space so that is 1/8 or a 1/4 if you do not want to rim that much off. The dynomat went on the metal rim after we shaved to eliminate any openings and prevent metal vibrations. So you have plenty of metal to work with before you hit the fabric edge.



If you notice on the picture above of the L1 Pro R2, the rim of the tweeter has shaving marks. We got to the 1/8 mark. The small set back will not interfere with the overall output of sound.

As for the caps on the Alpine tweeter, my 2011 did not have them. The cap is a bass blocker. If you do not get them now, when you reach the phase for the amplification, then I recommend it as safety precaution against spikes during the initial setup.

Best for now.
1stJeepGC, I'm still having a hard time getting my head around having to trim back the tweeter rims myself for a couple of reasons. I'm concerned about warranty if I ever needed to return one and I'd like to keep them in original shape in case I ever wanted to move them to another vehicle. I'm actually still working on trying to get them here in Canada.

Is there a plan B. If I was to take a hard rubber washer, as in the attached picture, and cut it to the exact dimensions and sandwich it between the OEM enclosure and the tweeter rim would that solve the issue. I could even seal the washer to the enclosure. It's about 4mm thick. At least there would be something solid behind the entire tweeter rim. According to the HAT mechanical drawing, it's not much more than 1/4 inch wide.

Plan C would be to move down the line to Clarus or Unity components. The smaller tweeter bodies look like they would be an easier fit. Only issue there is you've really sold me on the L1 Pro R2 tweeters being better than anything else in the HAT lineup, even with just the stock Alpine amp. It could be another year or two before I replace the Alpine system completely, if ever.

Your best recommendation will be appreciated.
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  #31  
Old 10-17-2015, 08:39 AM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Greetings,

Go for plan B.

Plan D: continue with plan B and if want to cut the pillar enclosure back and try to see if you can retro fit the included grill. If you are leasing, then do not, otherwise go for it.

Best for now.
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  #32  
Old 12-10-2015, 09:24 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Greetings again 1stJeepGC.

I would appreciate a little of your expert advice on the Alpine system, but first an update on where I am at:

After further research on some of my issues with the Alpine and after some system analysis by a high-end car audio shop, I have decided that a speaker-only upgrade without fixing other issues would not work for me.

My biggest issues are with how the front stage is crossed-over and mixed. In particular I find the center channel too dominant. A lot of music I listen to on headphones that has great stereo separation can sound almost mono and scrambled in the jeep. I have been fading to the back quite a bit to minimize the centre channel, but always wondered why I had the sensation that a lot of midrange was missing. I realize now that is because the front woofers are crossed over quite low (300Hz). The best speakers in the world won't bring the excluded midrange back to those doors without fixing the system.

Also the shop indicated there is only about 25 to 27 watts into a 2 ohm load on those channels, so better quality 4 ohm speakers might only see 12 to 15 watts.

Realizing that the Alpine cannot be replaced without loosing factory functionality due to the CAN-bus control, we have come up with the following solution. We are going to do this with just the Alpine speakers for now. Stage 2 will be adding better speakers down the road.

We are going to use the speaker outs from the Alpine and run them into an Audison AP 8.9 bit combination DSP/amp. Together with a AP 1 D amp for the sub and a Audison SPM4 channel mixer for summing the front doors, this will give us enough inputs and outputs to give each speaker in the system, except for the two D pillars, a stand alone DSP/amp channel. The dual channel sub will be wired in series and will be getting over 300 watts into 4 ohms. Each of the other speakers will be getting about triple what they currently get into 2 ohms. The D pillar speakers we will leave on the Alpine.

Between the channel summing and DSP deequalization we should get the full signal we need to recrossover the front doors. The other channels are close enough that just some DSP work should suffice. The shop is suggesting we do some time alignment, in particular, aligning the sub with the front door woofers. We also intend to really downplay the centre channel.

I'm curious as to how the Alpine speakers will sound in this setup, although the intention is to build a solid platform for better speakers down the road.

Now for the questions. Do you have any ideas on how the Alpine Euphony creates the surround sound environment? In particular, do you know if they use time delays. The shop is guessing they must have some sort of steering logic, but they are not able to test for time delays.

I like having surround sound on, because it does help bring some life to the current system, but I'm wondering if there will be any issues with what we are planning.

I consider you a surround sound expert, having designed your own system from the ground up, so any insights you have on the Alpine would be appreciated, or let me know if you see any issues with what we have planned.
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  #33  
Old 12-12-2015, 08:17 AM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

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Originally Posted by David360 View Post
Greetings again 1stJeepGC.


Now for the questions. Do you have any ideas on how the Alpine Euphony creates the surround sound environment? In particular, do you know if they use time delays. The shop is guessing they must have some sort of steering logic, but they are not able to test for time delays.

I like having surround sound on, because it does help bring some life to the current system, but I'm wondering if there will be any issues with what we are planning.

I consider you a surround sound expert, having designed your own system from the ground up, so any insights you have on the Alpine would be appreciated, or let me know if you see any issues with what we have planned.

Greetings,

Earphony does use steering logic & time delays that are preset.



Regards to the center channel speaker, unforturanly, with the preset systems the center channel is way overloaded with information. Infact, my MS-8 does the something. I was able to adjust to my liking by doing several calibrations during the setup stage and my covering the front speakers a little to fact it out. The MS-8 has the superior steering logic to Alpine's H800 aftermarket unit. However, the H800 allows you to adjust center channel width similar to a HT theater. Additionally, the H800 only supports 5.1.

Back to your setup:

Make sure that the Audison 8.9 has enough power later on for your speaker upgrade. The front speakers generally like more power. Check out going with the AP 4.9 setup (keep the gains down with factory speakers until you switch speakers). IMHO, I would put the rear pillars on instead of the rear door and have the rear door on the other dsp. It more important to control the that stage in relationship to the front stage. By using the Audison DSP as the shop is suggesting is the right way and only way to go. Make use of the band-pass crossovers filters as I did. I would recommend to stick to the Butterworth filter types at first to make sure you not getting any cancellation between the factory dsp and the new dsp's.

Keep us updated.

Best for now.
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  #34  
Old 12-12-2015, 04:34 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stJeepGC View Post
Greetings,

Make sure that the Audison 8.9 has enough power later on for your speaker upgrade. The front speakers generally like more power. Check out going with the AP 4.9 setup (keep the gains down with factory speakers until you switch speakers). IMHO, I would put the rear pillars on instead of the rear door and have the rear door on the other dsp. It more important to control the that stage in relationship to the front stage. By using the Audison DSP as the shop is suggesting is the right way and only way to go. Make use of the band-pass crossovers filters as I did. I would recommend to stick to the Butterworth filter types at first to make sure you not getting any cancellation between the factory dsp and the new dsp's.

Keep us updated.

Best for now.
Thanks for the advice.

Why the Butterworth crossover filters? Is that what the Alpine uses?

Regarding the amps, I had considered the AP 4.9 setup. Based on my goals for the system, the shop thinks the 8.9 should be fine with better speakers, except maybe for the door woofers. Sounds like high-end 6.5s can be more power hungry. In that scenario, we may leave all four rear speakers on the Alpine and bridge channels on the 8.9 for the front door woofers, in which case they will each be getting 130 watts RMS into 4 ohms, which is even more power than they would get on single channels in the 4.9 setup.

We actually got started on Friday with the install, and should be done on Monday. Interestingly enough, the shop found the empty storage bin under the drivers seat and said it would be a perfect fit for the Audison amps and they would be close to the battery under the passenger seat for wiring. That bin is totally empty on my 15 Altitude, although I think it gets used for other stuff on the higher end models. I'm trying to get some pics of the install, which I'll post for the forum community at some point.

Regarding speakers down the road, as much as I appreciate your previous advice on the Hybrid Audio Legatia line, in particular the tweeters you have, they seem to be near impossible to get hear in Canada and I have no way of auditioning them, since the only dealer is on the other side of the country. The shop I am working with carries Morel, Hertz, Audison, JL Audio, Focal and Pioneer. I have been able to listen to all of them except for Morel. I am currently leaning towards the Hertz Mille Legend series: ML 280.3 tweeter, ML 700.3 mid and ML 1650.3 woofers.

For the sub, we'll be looking at a new 8" that Audison is bringing out in the near future, if it looks like it will work in the Alpine enclosure.

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 12-12-2015, 04:47 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

Greetings,

Anytime.


The Butterworth is easier to adapter too when you have signals coming out of other sources. It is a smoother transition. In your case play with that first and then go to other others. Tweeters in your setup might sound better going with the Butterworth and those you can pick and play once the speakers break in.

Go with the Hertz speakers until you hear some others.

Keep us updated.

Best for now.
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2015, 07:12 PM
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Re: 2011 Alpine simple make over

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Originally Posted by 1stJeepGC View Post
Greetings,

Keep us updated.

Best for now.
It sounds awesome. Thatís what I think of the the new Audison setup running on the Alpine system, even with just the Alpine speakers. It is noticeably cleaner and more distortion free.

There is also a little more sound coming from the tweeters, even though they are crossed over at about the same frequency as they were on the Alpine. I guess with the de-EQ and the Butterworth crossovers, the Audison DSP does a better job of reproducing those higher frequencies.

For my ears, itís great having the front stage midrange frequencies now coming from the doors rather than just the centre speaker. I have the centre speaker turned down very low and I do not miss it. Personally, I much prefer the more true-to-original stereo separation.

I still have surround sound turned on, as I like how it broadens the sound from the back stage. We put the back door woofers on the Audison rather than the D-Pillars because I like lots of base and they help in that regard. The D-Pillars are still in the mix, but they are playing on the Alpine amp.

Now that I can hear the sub with the added power, to me it is the weakest speaker in the system. Itís very boomy, even with the exclosure dynamatted. It will be the first speaker to change.

Iím not trying to suggest that the other Alpine speakers are great. I realize that higher end speakers will be much tighter and fuller. I do think this approach with adding new DSP and amps first has shown that if you want a higher SQ system, replacing OEM speakers is only half the battle at most. This approach has proven to me that quality aftermarket DSP and amp systems are dramatically superior to OEM.

I am not disputing the fact that members on the forum have reported great success with speaker only upgrades. If they are OK with how the Alpine amp produces sound that may be all they ever need to do, as 1stJeepGC has stated before. What I would suggest to members who have put in aftermarket speakers and have been unhappy with the results, it may be more the amp and the inability to make any adjustments to suit those speakers that is at fault.

With this setup there is no loss of any factory functionality. Nothing has been removed or replaced. My only concern was thinking that turning down the centre channel would reduce Nav voice and bluetooth phone call volume. It doesnít. They are now coming clearly from the front doors, since that is where the mid range frequencies are now coming from.

The beauty of this Audison DSP is how customizable every single speaker channel is. I sat with one of the techs at the shop for about a half hour fine tuning the system, in particluar the door woofer sound. I now have the software loaded on a laptop and through USB I can go in and make tweaks myself. Itís pretty cool when you can slide points around on a full parametric EQ for each speaker pair and hear the result in real time. And there is now no need to use the 3-band EQ or fader in the head unit. Those are set flat.

Iíve attached a few snapshots: the Audison summing device for the front doors connected to the Alpine Amp, the Audison combo DSP amps in the compartment under the drivers seat, and the location we used for the subwoofer volume controller. Itís that black LC-1 dial just to the left of the audio system inputs.
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