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  #61  
Old 04-01-2014, 08:56 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

I am very pleased with the HK system for SD card, CD, and radio. The XM reception is muffled and low quality. It was not this way in my last car that had the Bose system. May drop XM but I travel a lot out of my area and like the versatility of the XM.
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  #62  
Old 04-01-2014, 09:17 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

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Originally Posted by Hayseed_wk2 View Post
I am very pleased with the HK system for SD card, CD, and radio. The XM reception is muffled and low quality. It was not this way in my last car that had the Bose system. May drop XM but I travel a lot out of my area and like the versatility of the XM.
Greetings,

Gland that you like how it sounds. I always tell folks that sound is perceived differently by others. What might sound excellent to you, might not be right for the person standing next to you. IMO, the Logic 7 to implement the surround sound system is a great choice. In my upgrade, I installed the JBL MS-8 in order to have the Logic 7.

I do not know which SirusXM receiver Chrysler choose to use, but, it is a disgrace especially in the Jeep Premium Audio systems. My last aftermarket SirusXm receiver matched to the Kenwood deck had far superior output gain.

Best for now.
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  #63  
Old 04-01-2014, 10:40 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

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...Harman loves the use of coaxial drivers in Mobile Audio. I am not a fan of having to many tweeters in a car. I am sure in the DSP, Harman, has toned it down, otherwise, you can get a serve case of "ear bleed"
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In my current setup (got rid of the Alpine), I have only one pair tweeters located in the front along with a 6 inch driver. The rest of the speakers are wide band full range with the highs cutting out at 15K hz...

I rented a JGC Limited w/ Lux. II for a week before I got my Summit, and I was pretty happy with that stock system. I thought the HK in the Summit would be incredible but, I think the HK system has way too much high end, or some would call it 'too bright', or maybe 'tinny'.

I've got the EQ bass set as high as it goes and the treble set at 4 to 5 below the middle, and cymbal crashes are still too loud for my taste of hard rock. A system like the HK needs a lot more than a 3 band EQ.
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  #64  
Old 04-01-2014, 05:12 PM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

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Originally Posted by Damn Dude View Post


I rented a JGC Limited w/ Lux. II for a week before I got my Summit, and I was pretty happy with that stock system. I thought the HK in the Summit would be incredible but, I think the HK system has way too much high end, or some would call it 'too bright', or maybe 'tinny'.

I've got the EQ bass set as high as it goes and the treble set at 4 to 5 below the middle, and cymbal crashes are still too loud for my taste of hard rock. A system like the HK needs a lot more than a 3 band EQ.
Greetings,

Thank you for that information. They way you described it reminds me of the Gemini Pizo tweeter boxes used for DJ's.

Some folks might thing that is perfect for the type of music they listen too. While others feel it is a total let down. When I used to sell home audio speakers, I used demo the speakers if you taking an eye exam. I also asked the type of music they listen. Obviously, the car manufactures can not conform to everybody's taste. However, they can make it easier to upgrade or give you some more tools to help.

The 9 tweeters will cause that problem you are experiencing depending on your music that you love to listen too. I can not understand why Harmon nor Chrysler in the design of this system did not provide a greater Eq system to help compensate. In the JBL MS-8, also by Harmon, they have included a 31 band eq section for overall tuning. I am using the MS-8 in my upgrade for the LOGIC 7. The better aftermarket head units today give you at least 10 or more bands to work with and various other DSP functions. The Kenwood Excelon series is an excellent example.

In a previous post within this thread, I mentioned I used only 1 pair of tweeters which is more than enough to deal with the acoustics of the vehicle. Besides the MS-8, I use the Rockford 3.sixty.3 to tune the individual channels to my liking.

Best for now.
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  #65  
Old 08-29-2014, 08:41 PM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

My opinion of the HK system is that it's just unbalanced. There is no smooth transition between the highs, mids, and low, and sub. My biggest gripe is how boomy the bass gets without a linear increase in midbass. I'm ok with tuning the middle and high frequencies, but I just can't figure out where to set the bass to find a good balance between solid mid bass and a distorted low bass. I wish there was a separate sub level we could select.

What's also of note is that HK claims we have the Logic7 DSP system in our GC. I've heard this sytem in a BMW 3 series and was very impressed, it was smooth and balanced. Strong but not annoying. I feel it's hard to get that same balance in our vehicles. Too many speakers and not enough control. =T
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  #66  
Old 08-29-2014, 09:31 PM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

I agree and find the highs a bit too high half of the time, music dependant and the lows need big improvement. To use or call the 6x9s a subwoofer (7.3) because the actual sub cant do the job is a cop out. It's like some guy said "there's not enough bass from this 10" sub they gave us" and another guy says "easy, just whack in some 6x9s like we did in the '80s". Problem solved.

I can't quite put my finger on the problem with the mids. I don't really know where to start in dialling this in but think I should start with the sub and go from there. First tighten up the enclosure, then replace the sub with a good 8 or 10" then maybe a LOC to small sub amp with separate control mounted in the front. 1st GC suggested a cap to block highs on the front mids which should tame those highs.

The 3-band EQ? Hilarious. Don't even know where to begin.
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  #67  
Old 08-30-2014, 12:25 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

Yeah a 3 band eq with no sub control is a joke. Bass management is probably the holy grail for sound quality. Why our "premium" system has such weird bass characteristics escapes me


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  #68  
Old 08-30-2014, 02:51 PM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

Greetings,

One of the biggest problems with a premium OEM sound systems, they do not give you access to the DSP. The eq section will not provide you with the proper tools to balance anything. These system are set as a generic tuning session. In your case and others, the settings are not set to how you perceive sound. Basically, the two key settings that would help is the xover and time delay.

If HK will provide the same setup as in their JBL MS-8 geared to the JGC, then this would mostly like improve the system by 50 percent. The auto calibration would then set the time delay's, which it does a very decent job in. The owner will just have to input the xover settings. Would they, HK and Jeep do it, I seriously doubt it. They would not be responsible of blowing up speakers, nor would they want to teach and give advise on sound engineering.

The Logic 7 is only a surround sound steering matrix that sends the signals to the respective speakers. The matrix also blends in some effects such as reverb, echo and other proprietary effects to each speaker.

Best for now.
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  #69  
Old 09-04-2014, 02:30 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

So I had some time this evening and brought out my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter I use for Home Theater to see what was really going on with this system. In my efforts to control the bass what I noticed with having it at -5db, all that happened was a bad dip 60-90hz and nothing else which caused a bad quality sound. I leveled the EQ, set the volume to get 75dB at 1kHz using my -30dB test tones and ran a bunch of samples.

As you can see the base EQ is very biased towards bass without even factoring microphone correction factors (this microphone reads bass a couple dB less, flat to about 2kHz, then a bit spotty afterwards). So instead of trying to control the bass - which is impossible due to lack of sub volume control, I tried to boost the mids. I ran out of time (and tolerance to high freq test tones) so i'll do more testing with the highs at a later time.

75dB 27 mid +5 mid +9
20 65 65 65
30 87 87 87
40 93 93 93
50 96 96 96
60 91 91 91
70 84 84 84
80 80 79 79
90 86 86 86
100 84 84 84
200 72 73 73
300 74 75 74
400 71 71 76
500 73 74 68
600 73 69 77
700 64 73 78
800 72 75 78
900 73 78 78
1 75 74 78
2 60 68 72
3 67 66 71
4 67 68 64
5 55 65 47
6 48 51 51
7 50 53 54
8 44 53 50
9 60 48 67
10 65 52 50
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  #70  
Old 09-04-2014, 07:25 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

Greetings,

Your results are pretty much similar to the Alpine Premium System. Great work for taking the time out. Also, you have to remember, both HK and Alpine have to deal with specs mandated by Chrysler.

They have to bring the sub and the 6x9 into a basic setting that overlaps both speakers. This way they can control the crossover slope, which my guess is about 12db for both speakers. The actuarial crossover point could be anywhere from 50 to 65 Hz (cycles). Thus, the biased to the bass curves on the eq is only to fine tune that area. Which way some complain about the bass being muddy.

Based on your information, their is not enough tuning for the critical midrange frequencies. In short, in tuning with car audio, you are dealing with what is known as off-axis response based on the install location of the speakers, especially with a surround sound configuration. Which is completely different from your typical home theater setup. FYI: The new Dolby Atmos HT receivers take off-axis into account.

As I have said previously over the years, an eq can only help to a certain point when dealing with a system that uses an active (electronic) crossovers. Some manufactures try to convince the public that an eq works the same way as a crossover. In the aftermarket world, the top tier HU now have a better DSP and eq to help zone in for sound quality. But not on a level of an aftermarket DSP.

Car audio has come along way with the recent generation of DSP units, were they are just about equal to the dedicated professional DSP units used for in-house and concert venues, etc. That is why you see a few people here installing aftermarket DSP with individual crossover and eq channels in order to fine tune their systems. The negative effect of this is it gets very expensive.

Best for now.
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  #71  
Old 09-04-2014, 11:37 AM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

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Originally Posted by 1stJeepGC View Post
Greetings,

Your results are pretty much similar to the Alpine Premium System. Great work for taking the time out. Also, you have to remember, both HK and Alpine have to deal with specs mandated by Chrysler.

They have to bring the sub and the 6x9 into a basic setting that overlaps both speakers. This way they can control the crossover slope, which my guess is about 12db for both speakers. The actuarial crossover point could be anywhere from 50 to 65 Hz (cycles). Thus, the biased to the bass curves on the eq is only to fine tune that area. Which way some complain about the bass being muddy.

Based on your information, their is not enough tuning for the critical midrange frequencies. In short, in tuning with car audio, you are dealing with what is known as off-axis response based on the install location of the speakers, especially with a surround sound configuration. Which is completely different from your typical home theater setup. FYI: The new Dolby Atmos HT receivers take off-axis into account.

As I have said previously over the years, an eq can only help to a certain point when dealing with a system that uses an active (electronic) crossovers. Some manufactures try to convince the public that an eq works the same way as a crossover. In the aftermarket world, the top tier HU now have a better DSP and eq to help zone in for sound quality. But not on a level of an aftermarket DSP.

Car audio has come along way with the recent generation of DSP units, were they are just about equal to the dedicated professional DSP units used for in-house and concert venues, etc. That is why you see a few people here installing aftermarket DSP with individual crossover and eq channels in order to fine tune their systems. The negative effect of this is it gets very expensive.

Best for now.
well said! and unfortunately, it will cost a lot of money to fix an embedded problem.

In the HT world, unless you're building a 5 figure setup, systems like Audessey make up a whole deal to compensate for speakers and placement. I haven't had a chance to demo an Atmos receiver yet, but been itching to replace my 11 year old integra because I want HDMI control.

For example, my girlfriend's system is a basic HT 5.0 setup with floorstanding speakers so all sub freqs go to the respective channel. Her's has the basic Audessey, and yet channel definition and clarity feel on par if not better than my integra with B&W 5.1 setup. Something simple as microphone tuning and DSP can fix so many inherent flaws in speaker and environment, it's a wonder why it's not used in the automotive world. it's an ideal situation, every vehicle made will have the same exact speakers, in the same exact place, in the same exact cabin. one and done per model.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:40 PM
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Re: From the horses mouth on the Harman Kardon System

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well said! and unfortunately, it will cost a lot of money to fix an embedded problem.

I haven't had a chance to demo an Atmos receiver yet, but been itching to replace my 11 year old integra because I want HDMI control.

F
Greetings,

Sorry folks, a little of topic.

The best way to demo a Atmos receiver is go and find a Dolby Atmos equipped movie theater that is playing an excellent action/adventure movie and a sic-fi. Then demo a receiver when they hit the market. Pioneer Elite is suppose to be out this holiday season with the firmware update.


Dolby Atmos


Best for now.
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