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  #25  
Old 02-07-2011, 08:20 PM
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Re: 2012 NA Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Technosavant View Post
Because in pickup trucks they give something you can't really get with gasoline- stump pulling amounts of sheer torque. Emissions rules for large pickup trucks are also different from passenger cars and SUVs too.

As ultra low sulfur diesel becomes more predominant in the US, we may see more diesels, but the fuel itself is more expensive (to say nothing of purchase and maintenance costs on a diesel), so there just isn't the same market.

I don't deny that the low end torque of a diesel would be nice, I just don't think the payoff would be worth it over the Hemi- you'd be taking a much more expensive engine that costs a lot more to feed (sure, it will go longer on a tank, but if you get 30% better mileage and the fuel is 30% more expensive, you never make back that difference). If you need the power for towing or other heavy work, that's one thing. But for a vehicle like the WK2, there's just not much point to it.
hang on it sounds like you are talking out of you a$$. i have owned diesels for the past 10 years. ULSD has been a gov law since 2006. diesel is only expensive because more companys are making diesel cars increasing demand (before only 18 wheelers used it). ULSD burns 95% cleaner than gas. vw has one of the best diesels on the market and it is not a torque monster. oil changes every 10-15k miles and engines that run 500k before needing to be rebuilt. an inline six diesel would be a perfect fit for the wk2 IF they could make the engine light enough.

as a side note audi's flagship the Q7 now has a TDI as well as some of their other models. diesel is easier to refine and cost less, burns cleaner, and safer.
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  #26  
Old 02-07-2011, 08:25 PM
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Re: 2012 North American Diesel?

It's going to be a V6 diesel, with input from Caterpillar, as previously stated.

Packaging a long straight six engine into the WK2 would be difficult, given all other engine packages are short "V" configurations.......
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2011, 08:35 PM
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Re: 2012 North American Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Marlin View Post
It's going to be a V6 diesel, with input from Caterpillar, as previously stated.

Packaging a long straight six engine into the WK2 would be difficult, given all other engine packages are short "V" configurations.......
you are correct a v6 would make more since but an inline would be killer. if they put a v6 diesel in the wk2, i will trade in my dodge 2500 4x4 diesel in a heartbeat,
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  #28  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:02 PM
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Re: 2012 North American Diesel?

Well, we're getting it in April/May this year in Oz, so there's hope yet! lol
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  #29  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:07 PM
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Re: 2012 NA Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Rosewood View Post
hang on it sounds like you are talking out of you a$$. i have owned diesels for the past 10 years. ULSD has been a gov law since 2006. diesel is only expensive because more companys are making diesel cars increasing demand (before only 18 wheelers used it). ULSD burns 95% cleaner than gas. vw has one of the best diesels on the market and it is not a torque monster. oil changes every 10-15k miles and engines that run 500k before needing to be rebuilt. an inline six diesel would be a perfect fit for the wk2 IF they could make the engine light enough.

as a side note audi's flagship the Q7 now has a TDI as well as some of their other models. diesel is easier to refine and cost less, burns cleaner, and safer.
Didn't pay attention to what I wrote, did you?

The statement I responded to was dealing with people opting for diesels in heavy duty pickup trucks. Those are chosen for that power and capability. I said nothing in the post you quoted about the VW TDI.

As for ULSD, ok, I didn't remember when it was mandated. Big whoop.

The price involves more than just increased production of diesel vehicles. The diesel cars sold in the US are statistically insignificant; there's no way they're driving up the price of diesel. As others said, it has to to partly with taxes, and as I said, there's also issues on the production side. Diesel may indeed be easier to refine than gasoline (since gasoline is a lighter distillate of petroleum, it's not as easy to crack the heavier types of crude into gasoline), but the fact is that our refineries in the US are not set up to produce more diesel than gasoline, and you can't flick a switch and change the production ratios.

I'm not denying that a diesel would be a great engine for the WK2 in terms of power characteristics, efficiency, and longevity. I do wonder if it will be economically worthwhile- most people don't keep the thing for 200,000 miles or more. Unless the fuel efficiency difference can offset the higher price of both the purchase and the fuel costs, they will remain a hard sell. VW has made it work with their little TDIs, and they're great. BMW and Mercedes seem to be making it work with their diesels (albeit with urea injection, which might scare off a few folks). But the engines are still at a premium, and like with hybrids, you have to figure out if you'll make that money back.
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  #30  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:27 PM
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Re: 2012 NA Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Technosavant View Post
Didn't pay attention to what I wrote, did you?

The statement I responded to was dealing with people opting for diesels in heavy duty pickup trucks. Those are chosen for that power and capability. I said nothing in the post you quoted about the VW TDI.

As for ULSD, ok, I didn't remember when it was mandated. Big whoop.

The price involves more than just increased production of diesel vehicles. The diesel cars sold in the US are statistically insignificant; there's no way they're driving up the price of diesel. As others said, it has to to partly with taxes, and as I said, there's also issues on the production side. Diesel may indeed be easier to refine than gasoline (since gasoline is a lighter distillate of petroleum, it's not as easy to crack the heavier types of crude into gasoline), but the fact is that our refineries in the US are not set up to produce more diesel than gasoline, and you can't flick a switch and change the production ratios.

I'm not denying that a diesel would be a great engine for the WK2 in terms of power characteristics, efficiency, and longevity. I do wonder if it will be economically worthwhile- most people don't keep the thing for 200,000 miles or more. Unless the fuel efficiency difference can offset the higher price of both the purchase and the fuel costs, they will remain a hard sell. VW has made it work with their little TDIs, and they're great. BMW and Mercedes seem to be making it work with their diesels (albeit with urea injection, which might scare off a few folks). But the engines are still at a premium, and like with hybrids, you have to figure out if you'll make that money back.
i would bet 75% of 3/4 ton diesel truck owners bought the diesel because it is a diesel. the same reason people by a 4X4. everyone i know bought them because you can make 800 hp with a $300.00 chip. they are big and will smoke a 2011 corvette if tuned right. i dont know of a single person that uses their truck to haul anything other than air including me.

as for the taxes, they are the same on gas and diesel per gallon. the truckers union tried a boycott in 2008 to get it reduced but failed. farm diesel is not taxed but also contains a red dye.

producing diesel is very simple, for lack of the technical terms a refinery simply decrease the heat applied to a barrel of oil to produce more diesel. diesel is a big money maker. you will change your driving habbits if gas goes too high, hell some will even trade their car in. truckers cant.

go check out a 3/4 ton diesel forum and then tell me these trucks are used to tow with. they are hot rods with a bed on them. check out bd diesel, diesel power mag and others it is a large market. i blew the heads off a 2005 ford f-250.

i dont want to start a war, you just dont know what you are talking about when it comes to diesels and their use. yes the farms use them for their towing ability, but the ceo and attorney are running 9.8 1/4 miles

http://www.bankspower.com/app/index/2
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  #31  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:31 PM
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Re: 2012 North American Diesel?

here is another one. duramax diesel - world champ

http://www.bankspower.com/racing

diesel beating vet
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  #32  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:50 PM
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Re: 2012 NA Diesel?

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i would bet 75% of 3/4 ton diesel truck owners bought the diesel because it is a diesel. the same reason people by a 4X4. everyone i know bought them because you can make 800 hp with a $300.00 chip. they are big and will smoke a 2011 corvette if tuned right. i dont know of a single person that uses their truck to haul anything other than air including me.
It's the power. Maybe not for towing, fine, but it's the power. If the diesel made less power than the gas engine, I doubt you'd have people going nuts for the Power Stroke or Cummins. In trucks, "diesel" = "big noise, big power" (and usually better efficiency).

OK, you got me on the taxes too, but I got the refinery info from a tech report in Road & Track, and I've found them generally reliable on the technical issues.

I have nothing against diesels, I just am not convinced they would be economically viable to include in the Grand Cherokee. They're proven tech, long lived, and generally more efficient than gasoline engines, but you trade the lack of smog causing emissions for greater particulate matter (which can be handled) and they're generally heavier engines that are more expensive to make.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:02 PM
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Re: 2012 NA Diesel?

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as for the taxes, they are the same on gas and diesel per gallon. the truckers union tried a boycott in 2008 to get it reduced but failed. farm diesel is not taxed but also contains a red dye.
The Federal gasoline tax is 18.4 cents per gallon, whereas for nonfarm diesel it's 27.5 cents. Hardly "the same."
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:09 PM
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Re: 2012 NA Diesel?

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Originally Posted by Technosavant View Post
It's the power. Maybe not for towing, fine, but it's the power. If the diesel made less power than the gas engine, I doubt you'd have people going nuts for the Power Stroke or Cummins. In trucks, "diesel" = "big noise, big power" (and usually better efficiency).

OK, you got me on the taxes too, but I got the refinery info from a tech report in Road & Track, and I've found them generally reliable on the technical issues.

I have nothing against diesels, I just am not convinced they would be economically viable to include in the Grand Cherokee. They're proven tech, long lived, and generally more efficient than gasoline engines, but you trade the lack of smog causing emissions for greater particulate matter (which can be handled) and they're generally heavier engines that are more expensive to make.
i agree with you on that, a diesel is going to have some weight to it. my 4x4 diesel is horrible off road.

again i do not want to be a jerk, i am a little touchy about diesels. they have such a bad rap but are more economical, and cleaner burning than gas. they were the green fuel until someone figued out they could make a ton of money off of it. the same will happen with any other fuel source found.

i remember reading about the production of diesel fuel about 3 years ago when it went to 5.25 a gallon. there is something that the refinery controls to affect the production of diesel. for a while they were using diesel to subsidize to cost of gas, according to the truckers union, hence the boycott.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:18 PM
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Re: 2012 North American Diesel?

A diesel would make sense in the WK2 in the North American market and I hope Chrysler offers one before I'm ready to replace my V8 WJ in a couple of years.

If it does not come, I will also consider the new X3 that is rumored to be coming with a diesel.
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  #36  
Old 02-07-2011, 10:18 PM
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Re: 2012 North American Diesel?

Crude Oil : A Breakdown of Refined Volumes

An interesting fact sometimes gets lost in the discussion about the imports of fossil fuels. What is the actual breakdown of a barrel of crude oil into its related fuel and other products? Also, the actual percentages may vary depending upon the source of the crude as the composition of the crude and its individual elements can vary from one geographic location to another.


A standard barrel of oil contains 42 U.S. gallons of crude oil. Its interesting to note that 42 gallons of crude oil actually results in 44 gallons of petroleum products. So, through refining an increase in volume is realized. Not BTU, just volume. This occurs because there is a reduction in the density (weight) of some of the original crude oil as different petroleum products are created during the refining process.


The refining process is pretty simple. At the core, refining of crude oil involves the distillation of crude oil into its component elements. After distillation, conversion occurs, in some areas called 'cracking' molecules to allow for further refinement of the components that form crude oil. Further processing improves the quality of the various components so that they perform in their intended purpose.


The largest share of the 42 gallons of crude oil ends up as a finished motor gasoline. Motor gasoline accounts for 19.65 gallons (~ 47%) of the finished products produced from a barrel of crude oil. Next is distillate fuel or diesel at 10.03 gallons (~ 24%) . A distant third is jet fuel at only 4.07 gallons per barrel (~ 10%) of crude. Residual oil is typically around 1.72 gallons per barrel (~ 4%).


Other petroleum products that are created from a barrel of oil during the refining process include: still gas, petroleum coke, liquified refinery gas, asphalt and various oils for lubricants, kerosene, waxes and other miscellaneous products. These "other" hydrocarbon products account for the final 15% of the barrel or around 6.53 gallons of the 42 gallon barrel.


The largest consumption from a barrel of crude oil goes to diesel for on and off road transportation vehicles. So in order to meet the demand for diesel a larger volume of gasoline is produced. In some ways this explains why the wholesale price for gasoline and diesel are disconnected and one can go down while at the same time the other holding steady or climbing.










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