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  #49  
Old 03-09-2011, 06:26 AM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

HEMI and Diesel torque are almost the same, right.

But the way the engine give the torque (than torque x RPMs = Power) is totally different
Diesel under 1500rpm is dead, than has "brute force" torque till 3000rpm, than you see become weak again, the limiter is at 4000rpm
The turbo lag is evident at any rpms.
HEMI has more constant torque curve, acceleration is like endless till 5200/5500 rpms
Conclusion:
Diesel usage is from 1500 to 3500rpm, the gearbox works a lot
HEMI usage from 1000 to 5000rpms

And DONT TRUST about so cheap fuel consumption for CRD.
This why I ordered HEMI….
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  #50  
Old 03-09-2011, 07:57 AM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

You are ignoring the fact that the diesel will likely get 50% better real world milegae than the V8. If your preferences are really defined by which is quickest from 0-60, you are driving the wrong type of vehicle.
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  #51  
Old 03-09-2011, 08:48 AM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

Ugh...

1) You can not just do a units conversion to convert European fuel mileage ratings to US fuel mileage. The European ratings cycle is alot more forgiving then the US cycle and its the US cycle that best represents the north American market. Yes the diesel will get better mileage - it will not be as dramatic of a difference as the euro rating suggest though.

2) Power is what physically accelerates your car as power is torque combined with rational speed. A WK2 with 190hp will be school bus slow no matter what the torque rating is. Torque is multiplied through the gearsets in the drivetrain. To produce that much torque and only 190hp means that the rev limits are very low and therefore the gearing will need to be very very long which kills any torque advantage of the engine.

2a) case in point for those that wish not to believe the above .... BMW 328 vs 335i vs 335d
- 328i is a naturally aspired I6 with 230hp and 200 lbft
- 335i is a turbo I6 with 300hp and 300 lbft
- 335d is a diesel I6 with 265hp and 425 lbft

Quarter mile times are 14.8 for the 328i, 13.5 for the 335i, and 14.2 for the 335d. You can see, its power that determines acceleration at the end of the day.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:44 AM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

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Originally Posted by r0tor View Post
Ugh...

1) You can not just do a units conversion to convert European fuel mileage ratings to US fuel mileage. The European ratings cycle is alot more forgiving then the US cycle and its the US cycle that best represents the north American market. Yes the diesel will get better mileage - it will not be as dramatic of a difference as the euro rating suggest though.

2) Power is what physically accelerates your car as power is torque combined with rational speed. A WK2 with 190hp will be school bus slow no matter what the torque rating is. Torque is multiplied through the gearsets in the drivetrain. To produce that much torque and only 190hp means that the rev limits are very low and therefore the gearing will need to be very very long which kills any torque advantage of the engine.

2a) case in point for those that wish not to believe the above .... BMW 328 vs 335i vs 335d
- 328i is a naturally aspired I6 with 230hp and 200 lbft
- 335i is a turbo I6 with 300hp and 300 lbft
- 335d is a diesel I6 with 265hp and 425 lbft

Quarter mile times are 14.8 for the 328i, 13.5 for the 335i, and 14.2 for the 335d. You can see, its power that determines acceleration at the end of the day.
I think quarter mile times are a bit more relative when considering sports sedans but not 5000 pound SUVs. Even still the diesel quarter mile time falls between the nat. asp. I6 and the Turbo I6 and still achieves dramatically better mpg than both. In fact the 335d gets about 38% better mpg than the 335i and almost 30% better mpg than the 328i. Also, it is common for diesels to get better real world mileage than the EPA figures. I'm not doing any conversions either.
This argument becomes even more significant when discussing a vehicle that is not typically chosen for it's 0-60 and quarter mile times and that in normally aspirated gas form sucks fuel at a prodigious rate. This is a utility vehicle people- not a drag racer or track machine. The bottom line is that for its intended purpose, a clean burning diesel is the best match for a vehicle like this.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:23 AM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

Anyway my opinions is that kind of turbo diesel engines are developed just for "marketing" and to make complicate the easy things.
Just compare HEMI with new CRD:
Hemi is "old style" 2 valve each cylinder, variable cam, MDS and not so much.

CRD has:
4 valves each cylinder
The high pressure fuel pump (1800 bars!)
The variable geometry turbo
Intercooler
6 injectors
6 heating candles
EGR into head of engine
and others amenities.

As You go to engine hospital to repair, all buck you saved into fuel efficiency you pay to them with huge interests.

Reputation of quality VM automotive diesel engines, specially the 6 cyl, is very bad.

Please dont compare VM with Toyota, BMW, Peugeot or Mercedes.
Even so, the reliability of Toyota, BMW, Peugeot or Mercedes diesel engines is much lower than standard gasoline engines.

Now also the new turbo gasoline engines are very popular, and also not reliable at all.

Here in Italy many ppl buy turbo, than after the warranty expired, they cry a lot
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  #54  
Old 03-09-2011, 10:55 AM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

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Originally Posted by Thrumcap View Post
I think quarter mile times are a bit more relative when considering sports sedans but not 5000 pound SUVs. Even still the diesel quarter mile time falls between the nat. asp. I6 and the Turbo I6 and still achieves dramatically better mpg than both. In fact the 335d gets about 38% better mpg than the 335i and almost 30% better mpg than the 328i. Also, it is common for diesels to get better real world mileage than the EPA figures. I'm not doing any conversions either.
This argument becomes even more significant when discussing a vehicle that is not typically chosen for it's 0-60 and quarter mile times and that in normally aspirated gas form sucks fuel at a prodigious rate. This is a utility vehicle people- not a drag racer or track machine. The bottom line is that for its intended purpose, a clean burning diesel is the best match for a vehicle like this.
Then fine, look at the X5 35i vs 35d. Same engines as the 3 series I listed above. The gas version with more power but less torque is still a half second faster. Anyone with the attitude that 190 HP is not going to be slow in a WK2 because it has gobs of torque is going to be sorely disappointed.

ACCELERATION IS DETERMINED BY THE POWER CURVE
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:31 PM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

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Originally Posted by r0tor View Post
Then fine, look at the X5 35i vs 35d. Same engines as the 3 series I listed above. The gas version with more power but less torque is still a half second faster. Anyone with the attitude that 190 HP is not going to be slow in a WK2 because it has gobs of torque is going to be sorely disappointed.

ACCELERATION IS DETERMINED BY THE POWER CURVE
Where is this 190 HP coming from? Power is 241 HP with 406 lb/ft. torque.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:52 PM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

My brothers' new F250 is a diesel and makes 400hp and has 800 Ft.Lbs of torque. It isn't slow but it sure isn't fast either. Diesel's are cool but I wouldn't want one in my Jeep. Diesel is $4/gallon in Pittsburgh now and the diesel option on my brothers truck was $8000 over the gasser. It does get better mileage but he would have to drive ~500000 miles (i didn't figure the math out, it is just a hypothetical number ) to see any gain. Plus, his oil changes are $100 and he has to put in the DPF additive every other tank or so. It just isn't worth it, IMO.

Diesel motors are for tractors and Semi trucks - AKA, things that pull a lot of weight and are very slow. I know of a few diesel's out there that are fast but is rare. Keep the diesel's for the pulling crowd, the gasser motors are just fine for a Grand Cherokee.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:23 PM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

Right, hemi have oil change interval 3000 miles and CRD 12 k miles. hemi consumption is anything between 18 and 25 l/100 and crd is (specification) 8.5 l/100 km combined. Reputation for this engine is totaly unknown. It is brand new engine. Reliability lover then gaser, you must be kiding.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:33 PM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

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Originally Posted by 77rednecktruck View Post
My brothers' new F250 is a diesel and makes 400hp and has 800 Ft.Lbs of torque. It isn't slow but it sure isn't fast either. Diesel's are cool but I wouldn't want one in my Jeep. Diesel is $4/gallon in Pittsburgh now and the diesel option on my brothers truck was $8000 over the gasser. It does get better mileage but he would have to drive ~500000 miles (i didn't figure the math out, it is just a hypothetical number ) to see any gain. Plus, his oil changes are $100 and he has to put in the DPF additive every other tank or so. It just isn't worth it, IMO.

Diesel motors are for tractors and Semi trucks - AKA, things that pull a lot of weight and are very slow. I know of a few diesel's out there that are fast but is rare. Keep the diesel's for the pulling crowd, the gasser motors are just fine for a Grand Cherokee.
You DO realize that not every diesel engine has similar power characteristics, right? Just like every gasoline engine isn't the same.

My Ram truck has a 5.9L Magnum V8. It generates a fair amount of torque, but not much HP, since it doesn't rev that highly. It isn't fast. My wife's Acura TL has a 3.2L V6. It moves that thing with alacrity.

Fuel type does not dictate that you will have either stump pulling power and no high end or mediocre torque but the ability to put some revs on the clock. That's the design of the particular engine in question. Saying the GC's diesel will be slow because your brother's Power Stroke diesel is slow is just silly. I might as well say that because the 3.5L V6 formerly used in the GC is gutless, so also is the Pentastar- they're both gas engines, they both have 6 cylinders, they're close in displacement. But the engines could hardly be more different.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:52 PM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

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Originally Posted by Thrumcap View Post
You are ignoring the fact that the diesel will likely get 50% better real world milegae than the V8. If your preferences are really defined by which is quickest from 0-60, you are driving the wrong type of vehicle.
Who's talking about gas mileage concernes on a 2.5T+ truck?! If fuel consumption is such a concern you're looking at the wrong type of vehicle. PERIOD. The tree huggin' section is on some other forum. This is all about being able to carry the weight of this wagon throughout various conditions withought breaking a sweat. Towing is another matter.

Please stop bringing gas consumption up. The addition of a diesel will add more weight, option and maintenance cost and the price of fuel will be higher. Availability of pumps will also be an issue in the NA market. These are the reasons car makers don't do it. Keep the diesels on the real towing pick-ups. I you don't like having half a car then I don't blame you.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:16 PM
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Re: Specs and details released for WK2 diesel at Geneva

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Originally Posted by JeepeeJ View Post
Who's talking about gas mileage concernes on a 2.5T+ truck?! If fuel consumption is such a concern you're looking at the wrong type of vehicle. PERIOD. The tree huggin' section is on some other forum. This is all about being able to carry the weight of this wagon throughout various conditions withought breaking a sweat. Towing is another matter.

Please stop bringing gas consumption up. The addition of a diesel will add more weight, option and maintenance cost and the price of fuel will be higher. Availability of pumps will also be an issue in the NA market. These are the reasons car makers don't do it. Keep the diesels on the real towing pick-ups. I you don't like having half a car then I don't blame you.
I'm hardly a tree hugger as I drive a '11 M3 but I wouldn't turn down better gas mileage if it didn't sacrifice performance. The next M3 will get better mileage than the current generation. That's called progress. The bottom line is that for a 5000 pound SUV, the diesel is a fantastic option but probably not attractive to knuckle draggin' mouthbreathers who like to drag race in 5000 pound SUVs.
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