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  #25  
Old 09-16-2013, 11:32 AM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

$350 difference? Your crystal ball is dirty

I don't have to convince my partner of anything either... wherever you got that off topic crap from.

Ciao!
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  #26  
Old 09-16-2013, 11:51 AM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

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Originally Posted by Barboots View Post
$350 difference? Your crystal ball is dirty

I don't have to convince my partner of anything either... wherever you got that off topic crap from.

Ciao!
Just for fun. Very crude measure.

I punched in 10 year old Jetta's under $5K in Cars.com

Sorted by price. They might be getting $500.00 more back. These are mostly Dealer asking prices. Why, because the rest of the car falls apart by then. Electronics fail, suspension goes etc. And takes the diesel value down with it.

I don't see them getting a huge premium back for Diesel versions.

Used Volkswagen Jetta - in 01532 - on Cars.com

I seriously looked at Diesel when ordering limited. I'm very interested in better economy on something that can still tow my boat. Diesel just didn't make economic sense any way you slice it. Granted, I don't go off roading, except on my beach yanking the boat out.
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:24 PM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

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Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
The V6 is the most advanced engine, IMHO.

The V6 cost more in Europe. EcoDiesel isn't more $$$ because it's more complex and better engineered, it's because they can get the $$$ in the USA. My guess is, they are about equal.

You babbled on about it's not MPG, yet you continue to repeat that same mistake saying it's better MPG than the V6. MPG is an economic metric. You have to use cents per mile in order to fairly compare them and they are pretty damn close. Ignoring the $4500.00 up front surcharge. Marketing folks know customers will only look at MPG because they are to lazy to do the math.

Now if you want to compare MPG with the V8 while getting some of the same performance features, then fine.
I agree, you're right; the diesel isn't better engineered or more complex than a gas engine like I said, but the diesel's fundamentals of operation is superior as I said, even though it is actually simpler in operation. (i.e., a compression ignition engine compresses air in the absence of fuel which has benefits impossible for gasoline engines to have. In a gasoline engine, the need to avoid spontaneous ignition (either pre-ignition or detonation) limits the compression ratio, while the need to ignite and burn the compressed air/fuel mixture requires that the ratio of fuel to air remain within fairly narrow limits. And as far as efficiency, I think everyone knows diesel fuel contains more energy than gasoline) So while it may not be more complex, I'd say its operation is more evolved; or at least superior.

But aside from the above tangent, if you think I just babbled on about the MPG, it only shows I did a poor job of getting my point across which is, in part, the burden seems to get placed on the diesel engine option whereas the v8 is accepted as an upgrade even though it is less efficient. Thus my point in making that the diesel option is not only more efficient than the other option the v8, but also even more efficient than the v6 as well. You seem to imply I attribute the diesel's better MPG than the v6 as sole justification for the diesel; it is not and I did not intend to imply so.

The CRD is an engine upgrade for performance, just as is the v8. (I'm not suggesting the performance is closely comparable; however they are both clearly upgrades over the v6 and that is all that matters if someone is going to pay for an upgrade over the stock engine). If someone is going to pay for a performance upgrade, doesn't it make sense to not criticize the diesel as an option when the other engine upgrade happens to be less efficient? And if someone wants to be critical of the merits or justification for the diesel engine, I'll have to at least point out that it happens to get better MPG than the other option, and ironically even better than the stock v6 in the process. So while I point the better mpg than v6, doesn't mean it solely justifies it while ignoring the other attributes and reasons for a diesel.

I like both the v6 and v8, but it appears people get a pass from others when they pay for the extra performance of a v8, which costs more to obtain and operate than a v6. But it seems if you are willing to pay more for a diesel engine option, it is somehow different. If v6 people want to constantly analyze how many miles it will take to pay for the CRD, then they should also point out how much more expensive the v8 costs compared to the v6 to operate with every additional mile driven. Then I'd say well at least the diesel engine gets better mileage than v8 or stock engine. If someone pays extra for a diesel to get the extra performance they want, all of a sudden everything relates only to how many miles it will cost to pay back for the diesel upgrade. What about the fact someone is paying for what they want in the same sense as a v8 option is? All that does is to deny the fact the diesel is another higher cost upgrade than the v6, in the same exact way the v8 is. And again, if anyone is going to ignore that, I'll at least say the diesel is the most efficient of them all.

If the diesel got the same exact mileage as the v8 option, nobody would say anything. But because the diesel option gets very good mileage, all of a sudden people hold it to some payback standard as if that was the reason for the engine being offered as an option in the first place. People can't help themselves from looking at it that way and I can live with that so long as they realize it is partially unfair because the other engine option is less efficient and, but not for the diesel's existence, the v8 option is perfectly accepted despite its higher operating costs over the v6. Because the diesel costs more, one can't knock the diesel (pun intended) if its payback numbers aren't what one thinks they should be because that's not the sole reason for one, nor, I believe, the marketing pitch.


If I am going to pay for an engine upgrade, the primary reason not being MPG of it, I'll be quite happy if it happens to get better MPG than the other option and even moreso if better than the stock engine. And anytime someone wants to hold the diesel's merits erroneously to some never intended payback standard, I'll remind them that the others that paid more for a bigger gasoline engine that get worse mileage than my diesel engine upgrade.

I wonder if the diesel option will ever be $0. Actually I guess its sales success will determine if its even an option next year..I believe it costs more to manufacture a turbo-diesel than a normally aspirated gasoline engine, but I'm no expert. But if the diesel option was ever zero, or at least close to the v8, it makes me wonder if the v8 option would sell well.

The cost of the diesel option as you said $4500 is MSRP. Many, many, people got below invoice so the upgrade cost to them is more accurately perhaps $3400-$4000. And that is only perhaps ~$2000 more than a v8.
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:06 PM
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Shoestring.. I agree 100%. The fixation on payback vs the base engine is amazing. Its like focusing exclusively on price instead of value. These guys getting close to the EPA rating on the v6 are going easy on the accelerator. If the followed a CRD around, they would be revving and shifting harder while the CRD is operating efficiently at its 2000 rpm peak torque....which is nearly twice that of the v6. Granted the v6 will perform, just not economically.

This reminds me of the discussions among Excursion v8 gas vs Diesel owners. The gas engine was fine for some but underpowered for many. Nobody complained about the Diesel feeling underpowered. Heavier vehicles benefit greatly from more available torque. The GC is no featherweight. For my needs, the hemi and CRD are the two acceptable engines.

bd
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  #29  
Old 09-23-2013, 10:11 AM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

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Originally Posted by SJandL View Post
Here you go Acilate.

Vid of the drive to school. Apologies for the driveway noise - can't help that and also that really annoying little rattle is the camera I'm sorry. I let the vid run whilst I closed the gate so you can hear it at an idle.

Also, the road surface changes at 3.49 and that's when you start to hear more road noise, but it is not as noisy in the cabin - I promise. I think the first 4 minutes are probably the best for hearing it though.

Thank you SJandL! That definitely gives a good taster of the sound of the diesel. Appreciate you spending 10 minutes in near silence for this
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  #30  
Old 09-25-2013, 05:00 PM
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You guys are all comparing best case highway mpg. Let's be realistic here and compare city mpg which is where most of us do the most of our driving. Or compare average mpgs. In both of these scenarios the diesel has a large mileage advantage.

Nobody on the planet is going to drive all freeway at maximum fuel economy for 200k miles! All of your arguments are flawed.

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  #31  
Old 09-25-2013, 05:44 PM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

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Thank you SJandL! That definitely gives a good taster of the sound of the diesel. Appreciate you spending 10 minutes in near silence for this

ditto........
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  #32  
Old 09-27-2013, 07:42 PM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

The engine sounds much less like a diesel while in motion than I expected.
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  #33  
Old 03-20-2014, 06:39 AM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

A comment, and query, on the diesel noise.
When cruising (80 km/h or 50mph) it's very quite - main noise is tyre roar, which very much depends on the road surface. Even with the roofrack bars there is little wind noise.

What puzzles me is if you are driving slowly (say less then 50kmh/ 30mph) the it makes much more noise! Very rattly. Even with very light load (minimal throttle). (Noise goes with zero load - i.e. no throttle). How come?

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  #34  
Old 03-24-2014, 06:39 AM
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Re: What does the diesel actually sound like?

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Originally Posted by acilate View Post
I haven't been able to find much video or audio of the GC's diesel sound. I've found a few with a small section of the diesel at idle, but what does it sound like WOT from a stop, or WOT at freeway speeds? Can you hear the turbo? Is the stock exhaust loud at all?

I have had V8 cars all my life and V8 boats and love the sound.
Times are changing and the Diesel gives the performance without fuel consumption. The Diesel sounds strong and gutsy. Not a rattler like most others. You wont be at all disappointed. Quiet strong without reving. Just goes, pulls like a train without sounding like it is trying.
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_K View Post
That should actually be 48 gallons, not 50. But still... I hope you mean urea and not urine. Because if not and for $14.00/gallon I'll gladly pee in your truck
I'm actually curious how he got gallons as his final units there. If you divide a number by another number with the same units, your units of measure will cancel each other out and you're left with nothing, just a number with no value. So if he divided mpg by mpg, how did he decide that gallons were the left over unit? Why not miles? I know this is an old thread and I haven't gone through all the pages but if I were bored enough and had the time I'd do the math myself. But I do know that 24mpg/.5mpg would equal 48. 48 what though? I know it isn't gallons. It can't be miles either. It's just a number with no significance.
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  #36  
Old 03-24-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
Correct, but how often do you tow a boat? 200K miles?
enough to strain the little v6 and lower torque transmission that comes with it, potentially reducing its life.
Quote:
I have a 4500 Lb boat and will tow it with the V6 and I'm not that concerned. I tend to keep my boat on the water as much as possible

By the way for the math challenged here is the math.

You get 4 MPG (current estimated EPA for the diesel). Based on first reviews the estimate looks close.

Say $3.50 Reg, $4.00 Diesel

Say 24 MPG Reg, 28 MPG Diesel (Highway)
Its well documented that our highway miles are exceeding EPA. I'm getting 31-32 mpg overall at 70mph on interstate trips. I pay 3.55/gal for diesel.
Quote:
First we need to normalize the cost of fuel.

Easy 3.50/4.00 * 28 MPG = 24.5

This is the amount miles you get out of the amount of diesel that you could buy for the same price as gas per gallon.

Now you are down to 0.5 MPG savings over gas.
It is well documented that many V6 and Hemi drivers are not achieving EPA ratings. This is typical. Most diesels exceed their ratings and gas engines fail to meet their ratings. The reason: Diesels don't suffer under load and most people drive harder than the EPA test.
Quote:
How many Gallons can you buy with $4500.00?

$4500.00/$3.50 = 1285 Gallons.
Nobody but a fool pays MSRP. Most of us paid 4005 or less.
Quote:
How many gallons do you have to use to save 1 gallon?

24 MPG / 0.5 MPG = 50 Gallons

How many gallons do you need to save for the added cost of the Diesel option, oh yeah, 1285 gallons. So that's 1285 gallons * 50.
Flawed math based on normalised mpg. See above.
Quote:
You need to use 64250 Gallons to save 1285 Gallons at 0.5 MPG savings per gallon.

How many miles is that?

64250 Gallons * 24 MPG = 1,542,000 Miles.

When I said a million miles, I used $0.40 a gallon difference. It was you that suggested $0.50 difference. I've seen it as far as $1.00 spread.

The supply and demand drives the price to miles per dollar and they are currently very close to each other.

Granted the Diesel will likely do better. But the V6 does way better for some folks than EPA too. I've been getting 28 MPG on the highway. But that would be unfair to compare that to the EPA Est Diesel unless I owned one. But it would have to do 32 MPG Diesel Highway (for me) and it would still take ~1.2 million (I'm guessing don't feel like doing the math again) miles to break even !!!

That does not factor in urine. How much Urine do you need over 1.2 million miles? Noise, there is more noise, some like that noise. At least to the neighbors on a cold morning. Starting in extreme cold. Waiting for glow plugs in extreme cold. Finding Diesel stations.
You have a lot of misinformation there. The glow plug delay is maybe 1 second in extreme cold and the motor is not noticeably louder than a cold gas engine.
Quote:
If it got 34 MPG EPA, then it might start making sense. At 28 MPG it's almost non existent gain, I'm just saying economy wise.

Technical reasons, I guess so, but occasional boat towing, no, no way.

If your boat weighs more than 6200 Lbs do really want to use this little guy to tow it. I wouldn't on any regular basis.
Little guy? And the Hemi is the big guy? Lol. This is a stretch. The Aussies are towing at max capacity with their diesels and loving it.
Quote:
I just did another quick calculation.

Urea. Sounds cheap. Let's get that down to per gallon.

I checked Amazon. $14.00 for 2.5 Gallons (that's dirt cheap). You'll probably pay a heck of lot more locally.

Takes 10 Gallons per 10,000 miles.

$56 every 10,000 miles.

5600 (cents) / 10000 miles = 0.56 Cents / mile
We all fill at the truck stop where its 2 to 3 bucks a gallon.
Quote:
How much per gallon

0.56 (cents) * 28 MPG = 15.68 Cents Per Gallon for Urea.

Now add that to the Price of Diesel, now you're at $0.65 per gallon more.

Let's do just the first calc again

3.50 (Gas) / 4.15 (Diesel with Urea) * 28 MPG = 23.4 MPG equivalent. No need to go further you'll never catch up.

Let's guess at actual MPG

3.50 (Gas) / 4.15 (Diesel with Urea) * 32 MPG (Diesel Guess Highway Actual) = 27 MPG Equivalent

I'm getting 28 Actual.

Folks that get low 20's on Gas probably won't hit low 30's on Diesel, need to compare apples to apples.

And give me a break on the reliability thing with Diesel. I doubt many folks here will keep their SUV longer than 200K miles when the difference might kick in.

I've done NOTHING to my last two gas engines. Both well over 200K. Might have changed plugs ONCE on each. I changed oil at 7500 miles with synthetic. One was a Jeep another one a VW.
So you doubt anyone will keep theirs 200k but you ran both of yours past that?
Quote:
Here is a math question for you brilliant math guys.

How many MPG does diesel have to get Highway, to break even within 200K miles? If I'm getting 28 MPG on the Highway now with Gas? Don't forget Urea cost (use my dirt cheap price from amazon). And let's base it on $0.40 difference of Gas vs Diesel.
We can't use your math since many assumptions are skewed. My math puts me at 80k to 100k at 26.5 mpg per tank vs the Hemi GC. The v6 wasn't an option for me. I'd buy a different vehicle first.

I sincerely appreciate your passion but I have no idea why you would spend it on discounting a viable engine option which appears to be performing admirably now that we have had them for several months.
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