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  #37  
Old 09-17-2012, 02:32 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

I'm not arguing, but if you pay close attention I am talking about power conditioning PLUS grounding. If the Apexi does more than condition the electrical power, I would like for someone to explain it to me. Personally, I think it is impossible, other than provide clean power for proper electronics operation. And as far as designing and building something yourself that cannot be better than commercially available off the shelf product? That's a whole different argument. I am sure that the Hemi does love conditioned power, that beast makes some electrical noise, I know, I have one. I just think that $200 is an unfair price for what the device actually is and although the marketing claims may be true under certain conditions, it is somewhat misleading. Case in point, the Fitch fuel catalyst is very well built, but it doesn't do squat for "conditioning" fuel.

What magazine article are you referencing? Is it available online? I would like to see if they had performed any electrical noise measurements. This would also give me a benchmark for comparison.
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  #38  
Old 09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

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Originally Posted by griff1455 View Post
I'm not arguing, but if you pay close attention I am talking about power conditioning PLUS grounding. If the Apexi does more than condition the electrical power, I would like for someone to explain it to me. Personally, I think it is impossible, other than provide clean power for proper electronics operation. And as far as designing and building something yourself that cannot be better than commercially available off the shelf product? That's a whole different argument. I am sure that the Hemi does love conditioned power, that beast makes some electrical noise, I know, I have one. I just think that $200 is an unfair price for what the device actually is and although the marketing claims may be true under certain conditions, it is somewhat misleading. Case in point, the Fitch fuel catalyst is very well built, but it doesn't do squat for "conditioning" fuel.

What magazine article are you referencing? Is it available online? I would like to see if they had performed any electrical noise measurements. This would also give me a benchmark for comparison.
Do you have any before and after measurements of the electrical noise? This is something that shouldn't be tied to just the hemi, any Jeep should have the same, or similar amounts of electrical noise.
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  #39  
Old 09-17-2012, 02:49 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

LOL, I don't blame you one bit. 0AWG wire costs a pretty penny these days. Your second battery will provide some power conditioning. And when the apocalypse hits, I want you in the neighborhood when we run out of natural gas pressure for the home generators. You could power 5 homes with that setup!!! No worries on fuel, I think a lot of that can be found here in the hills of WV coming out of some funny looking contraption!
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:28 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

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Originally Posted by griff1455 View Post
The filter will be connected directly to the battery which will basically "absorb" all of the noise from the alternator or most anywhere else in the circuit.
Ok, that makes perfect sense. Like i said, wouldnt expect real power gains but may make for a happier system and that's not a bad thing.

Am I mistaken or is this Apexi thing claiming to "condition? the ground side? I found a write up done by a couple guys that opened one up. When I have some time I will try and find it. They found no gains and not much in there. Looks pretty and costs $200...gotta make more power...right?
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:17 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

The wonders of the web and technology!!! I just ordered a handheld oscilloscope for under $100!!! Now I will be able to test and hopefully prove my theory. I should have some results and data by late next week since I will be in TX this week. Home Office next week which means brake and TB upgrade as well as power tinkering and BEER!
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  #42  
Old 09-21-2012, 07:25 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

SO I have some very preliminary results. When I arrived home last night I had all of the components and oscilloscope that I had ordered. Today I built the filter circuit, but no housing yet. I did have it together enough to hook up and test quickly. When I put the scope directly on the battery, as I suspected, the +12v supply (actually 14+ volts) was polluted with noise. When I tested again with the filter attached, it was significantly cleaner. The scope has the ability to capture some screen shots as soon as I get a mini SD card for it. Once that happens and I can do some more complete testing with the filter in a housing and a solid grounding circuit installed, I will post some refined results, pics, and screen shots from the scope. I would like to test the Apexi as well for comparison if anyone close has one. One thing that I did notice was that the idle was so smooth I had to check and see if it was running. I have never had that happen on the 5.7l before, but I would expect that if sensor performance is enhanced.
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  #43  
Old 09-23-2012, 02:37 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

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Originally Posted by griff1455 View Post
SO I have some very preliminary results. When I arrived home last night I had all of the components and oscilloscope that I had ordered. Today I built the filter circuit, but no housing yet. I did have it together enough to hook up and test quickly. When I put the scope directly on the battery, as I suspected, the +12v supply (actually 14+ volts) was polluted with noise. When I tested again with the filter attached, it was significantly cleaner.
sounds interesting, post some info and pics on your homemade filter!
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  #44  
Old 09-23-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by griff1455 View Post
SO I have some very preliminary results. When I arrived home last night I had all of the components and oscilloscope that I had ordered. Today I built the filter circuit, but no housing yet. I did have it together enough to hook up and test quickly. When I put the scope directly on the battery, as I suspected, the +12v supply (actually 14+ volts) was polluted with noise. When I tested again with the filter attached, it was significantly cleaner. The scope has the ability to capture some screen shots as soon as I get a mini SD card for it. Once that happens and I can do some more complete testing with the filter in a housing and a solid grounding circuit installed, I will post some refined results, pics, and screen shots from the scope. I would like to test the Apexi as well for comparison if anyone close has one. One thing that I did notice was that the idle was so smooth I had to check and see if it was running. I have never had that happen on the 5.7l before, but I would expect that if sensor performance is enhanced.
It's interesting to see someone actually trying to put some experimental evidence to this question (it's a nice change!).

It is my understanding that most newer domestic cars do perform power conditioning. I believe that if you tap straight on the positive 12V supply, of course it is going to be noisy...but manufacturers wouldn't condition the power there anyway. They would condition it further down the line. If you hook up your oscilliscope on the positive lead for a component, and find that to be noisy, it would be more convincing no? So many systems will requre a stepped down voltage anyway, they would condition it at that time, not off the 12V main.

I've had many conversations with many people about this sort of thing.
What no one has been able to convince me of with all of these aftermarket wonders is why the manufacturers don't use them? Cost? Don't think so...for $20 worth of filtering equipment,if the could boost HP by the claims companies like to make, it would be a no brainer. They literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars every time an engine goes into a refresh cycle to eek out a couple more HP, a couple more MPG, a couple more foot pounds of torque.

Heck, if anyone here finds something that has a measurable impact like proponents of these gadgets are talking about - go to the big 3 with it. If it is real, you'll be a millionaire...
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  #45  
Old 09-23-2012, 04:44 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

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Originally Posted by dr.lee.baugh View Post
It's interesting to see someone actually trying to put some experimental evidence to this question (it's a nice change!).

It is my understanding that most newer domestic cars do perform power conditioning. I believe that if you tap straight on the positive 12V supply, of course it is going to be noisy...but manufacturers wouldn't condition the power there anyway. They would condition it further down the line. If you hook up your oscilliscope on the positive lead for a component, and find that to be noisy, it would be more convincing no? So many systems will requre a stepped down voltage anyway, they would condition it at that time, not off the 12V main.

I've had many conversations with many people about this sort of thing.
What no one has been able to convince me of with all of these aftermarket wonders is why the manufacturers don't use them? Cost? Don't think so...for $20 worth of filtering equipment,if the could boost HP by the claims companies like to make, it would be a no brainer. They literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars every time an engine goes into a refresh cycle to eek out a couple more HP, a couple more MPG, a couple more foot pounds of torque.

Heck, if anyone here finds something that has a measurable impact like proponents of these gadgets are talking about - go to the big 3 with it. If it is real, you'll be a millionaire...
Totally agree! If it's not measurable and repeatable but only notional and anecdotal, it's not worth a pinch of s**t.
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  #46  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:03 PM
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Measurable in which sense?
In Hp? I would think not, if so it would be such a small amount it would be negligible
In the sound system, or in the lights or power items..... i could see this making a difference.
It might even make a difference in allowing certain parts to last longer. Things like head lights, turn signal lamps, etc. Hell, it may even allow Hids to light quicker.

As for the big three. ,unless it would make a large difference in comfort, performance , i could see them skipping it. Why spend $30 per (example)car for your lights not to flicker or your unlock to work better? When we can save that money. Dont forget they were all in financial trouble a while ago.

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  #47  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:41 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

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Originally Posted by spyder873 View Post
Measurable in which sense?
In Hp? I would think not, if so it would be such a small amount it would be negligible
In the sound system, or in the lights or power items..... i could see this making a difference.
It might even make a difference in allowing certain parts to last longer. Things like head lights, turn signal lamps, etc. Hell, it may even allow Hids to light quicker.

As for the big three. ,unless it would make a large difference in comfort, performance , i could see them skipping it. Why spend $30 per (example)car for your lights not to flicker or your unlock to work better? When we can save that money. Dont forget they were all in financial trouble a while ago.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
I think this is it exactly. Sure it may do something, but not enough to warrant even the marginal costs of the parts in the eyes of those that build our vehicles. Good enough for me.
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  #48  
Old 09-23-2012, 09:13 PM
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Re: Apexi super voltage stabilizer 5.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.lee.baugh View Post
It's interesting to see someone actually trying to put some experimental evidence to this question (it's a nice change!).

It is my understanding that most newer domestic cars do perform power conditioning. I believe that if you tap straight on the positive 12V supply, of course it is going to be noisy...but manufacturers wouldn't condition the power there anyway. They would condition it further down the line. If you hook up your oscilliscope on the positive lead for a component, and find that to be noisy, it would be more convincing no? So many systems will requre a stepped down voltage anyway, they would condition it at that time, not off the 12V main.

I've had many conversations with many people about this sort of thing.
What no one has been able to convince me of with all of these aftermarket wonders is why the manufacturers don't use them? Cost? Don't think so...for $20 worth of filtering equipment,if the could boost HP by the claims companies like to make, it would be a no brainer. They literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars every time an engine goes into a refresh cycle to eek out a couple more HP, a couple more MPG, a couple more foot pounds of torque.

Heck, if anyone here finds something that has a measurable impact like proponents of these gadgets are talking about - go to the big 3 with it. If it is real, you'll be a millionaire...

I completely agree with you Doc.

The +12v at the battery is very noisy. I tapped into a +12v line at the ECM and found the same level of noise, but I am unsure if that was a supply line or an output since I don't have a wiring diagram and I know that the ECM has some power filtering built in. WIth the mock up, everything was much cleaner.

I have it all put together and installed now. I just need to get the micro SD card for the scope screen captures and then I can show the before and after shots as well as some detail on the project complete with pics.

I want to be very clear on my theory as well as my expectations. Something like this should do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for a brand new vehicle. For a vehicle with some age, I suspect that there should be some improvement. An engine and ECM design will only produce X amount of HP and torque. Yes, you can introduce mods and gain on both, but you cannot "magically" increase either without some effort. Current technology in fuel injected vehicles rely heavily on sensor feedback for proper engine management. It is in this area where my theory lies as well as the "statements" made by the suppliers of devices like this. A dirty or noisy power supply or a bad ground, or the combination of both can produce inaccurate or variable sensor readings which in turn provides less than peak performance signal feedback to the ECM. This is the reason that the grounding TB mod seems to work (I suspect that this particular mod would work on even a new vehicle since the TB body is ground isolated and probably builds a static charge which can impact the internal electronics on the drive-by-wire configuration).

Clean and stable power and ground will always enhance the operation of electronics, even in a modern automobile to the point at which they were designed (not beyond it). Noise can be introduced on either the power supply line or through the ground.

My reason for conducting this experiment in threefold: 1) To prove that these devices do provide a benefit, but only by restoring proper sensor operation in a vehicle that contains electrical noise, not by "boosting HP" above what the engine and ECM design will provide with or without mods) 2) To prove that the claims of the suppliers of these devices are somewhat misleading but do carry a hint of truth. I would be much more a believer of their advertising if they stated that there would be no benefit in a vehicle that did not have electrical noise. I also think that the cost is absurd (I have about $60 invested in parts). 3) If proven, then I have a solution and will readily share it with those that have an interest. If not, then lesson learned and had some fun.

I highly doubt that the big 3 would have an interest unless it were proven that they would save big $$$ on warranty work that they are currently paying out due to damage from electrical noise. Almost an impossible task since that type of data is highly confidential. Besides, they rely heavily or degradation of vehicle performance over time to stimulate repeat business.

I do have it all installed now, as I mentioned earlier, and a quick drive did appear to provide a smoother idle, better and faster throttle response, smoother and more responsive shifts, etc. However, I will await some readings before making any claims for certain. I have it set up that I can completely disconnect everything for some before and after scope readings. I just need to figure out the screen captures on my new toy.

Stay tuned if you like .............
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