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  #13  
Old 06-21-2012, 10:18 AM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyinRyan View Post
No, 2 separate companies, 2 separate tuners.

180* stat is recommended for the sake of detonation resistance.
This statement makes no sense. Detonation is knock, and there is a knock sensor so the engine will not experience this. There is no good reason to use a lower-temp. thermostat. The engine is designed to operate most efficiently within a particular temp. range and you're better off to stay within the range provided by an OEM thermostat. The single state 180 will cause more damage to engines, as it takes much longer to get up to temp than the stock dual stage, and engine wear occurs when parts are below operating temp. In 80k of use in all temps and driving conitions, my temp guage always reads 195 and never higher.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:31 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

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Originally Posted by dmsfun View Post
This statement makes no sense. Detonation is knock, and there is a knock sensor so the engine will not experience this. There is no good reason to use a lower-temp. thermostat. The engine is designed to operate most efficiently within a particular temp. range and you're better off to stay within the range provided by an OEM thermostat. The single state 180 will cause more damage to engines, as it takes much longer to get up to temp than the stock dual stage, and engine wear occurs when parts are below operating temp. In 80k of use in all temps and driving conitions, my temp guage always reads 195 and never higher.
Mine definately gets into the 210-220 range with the 2008 hemi
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:10 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Mine never runs that hot, but I keep it in top running condition; 210-220 is within normal range and you'd need to get hotter than that and have serious carbon buildup in the cylinders before any worries about detonation. How is your engine runnning and maintenance history; i.e., hopefully you have a catch Can, clean TB, good plugs, EGR, MAP, etc....if not,.do those before a cam. also Seafoam; I've tried all the top name fuel system cleaners and they did nothing, where one Seafoam treatment in the oil and gas tank made a night and day difference in idle smoothness, throttle response and WOT pickup.
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:22 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

plugs and sensors are all great, no catch can though, how much of an improvement is that? I've never installed one on any of my cars
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  #17  
Old 06-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

It keeps it clean,thats how it helps. Not a hp gain,but my tb is NEVER very dirty anymore.
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  #18  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:42 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Since I've had this exact setup in my WK for about 8 months now, I think I can make some useful comments for those who may be interested in this subject.
--I was told not to advance the cam as it already has 4 degrees ground into it, and it wouldn't work worth a crap if I did. Well.....I did advance it 2 degrees, not being sure how it would work, based on everyones' "recommendations and cautions". I am completely sorry I didn't advance it 6 degrees like I did on my Hemi LX. It runs soooo much better than the WK, it's not funny. I may soon tear the WK down again and advance it to 6 degrees....and install the underdrive pulley like 4.whoa did.
--I was told the heads had to come off to change the valve springs. I changed both cams without removing the heads or intake manifolds.
--I was told, "I had to have a Diablosport CMR tune" or I'd have serious problems. I've been running canned Superchips and Diablosport tunes the whole time it's been installed. Maybe a CMR tune would help some, but the cam/kit alone made a half second difference in my 1/4 mile elapsed time with a canned SC tune. With the Diablosport I can set the timing and fuel mixture. The Superchips, with the Advanced Trans. Tuning App. is worth its weight in gold, IMO. That is the main reason I am currently running it. I am going to go back to the DS tuner pretty soon and tinker with the trans. settings that it offers. It does not give the user full control of the trans. like the SC does, but generally gives a little better performance and economy.
--I've run both 190* and the stock 205* thermostat in both my Hemi's, with mixed results. In the LX I installed the 190* shortly after purchasing the vehicle new. It's worked flawlessly since. I did the same to the WK when I purchased it, and in the winter I was getting a, "not warming up quick enough" code, so I took it out and put the stock 205* one back in. It also works flawlessly, so I must conclude the difference is insignificant. Yesterday I just got back from a trip with the WK and had one fairly long (~4-6 miles) climb in the mountains with a 97* ambient temperature, and the engine temp. only got to 223*, and immediately went back to 207* once I crested the mountain.
--Get a catch can for the Hemi, and keep the EGR if you get headers. The EGR system reduces combustion temperatures and helps reduce the possibility of detontaion. The catch can does the same thing, in a different way. The Hemi has, probably, the worst crankcase ventilation system known to man. Here's what Mike, at Diablosport said about this:

"No, this is where I comment on lost power due to oil contamination in the intake tract/combustion chamber. I will assure you that after having seen as many logs of as many HEMIs as we have here at DiabloSport, not to mention the numerous HEMI vehicles we have had on our dyno for R&D, I can say, without a doubt, that the HEMI's PCV/Oil Vapor control is the worst of anything we deal with. All you have to do is pull your intake manifold to see the puddles of oil collected in there, and realize that it eventually gets in the combustion chamber, and oil don't like to burn, thus, detonation occurs.

There is no gimmick here. HEMI's have KR issues. The KR issues are 99% of the time contributed to by oil contamination in the intake charge, reducing the effective octane in the combustion chamber, and leading to a loss of performance.

Plenty of people have seen solid power gains on even stock vehicles when getting rid of an oil issue by adding a catch can that works properly.

Thanks"

Anyone interested in doing this mod. should be aware that it is "semi-difficult", time consuming, but gives about the best bang for the buck (cost about $1000-1200, complete with new valve seals, Crower cam advance kit, and on vehicle valve spring compressor) possible.....as long as headers and a low restriction exhaust are part of the mix. Without headers and exhaust, you'd not get the full potential out of the cam. As amw5 said, the cam is quite mild (smooth idle, MDS compatible), and you will have a fair amount of valve noise, much more than the so called "Hemi tick". I just tell folks the engine is worn out when they ask about the valve noise.
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  #19  
Old 06-24-2012, 07:44 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Yeah, the catch can is a must. I have 90k on mine. When I tore it down for heads and cam pistons were caked with crude... and my intake manifold was horribly oily. When I took the intake mani off I could see the steady flow of oil going into each intake valve.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:35 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Hey, Dan, how is yours working now?
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:39 AM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfun View Post
This statement makes no sense. Detonation is knock, and there is a knock sensor so the engine will not experience this. There is no good reason to use a lower-temp. thermostat. The engine is designed to operate most efficiently within a particular temp. range and you're better off to stay within the range provided by an OEM thermostat. The single state 180 will cause more damage to engines, as it takes much longer to get up to temp than the stock dual stage, and engine wear occurs when parts are below operating temp. In 80k of use in all temps and driving conitions, my temp guage always reads 195 and never higher.
Knock sensors are designed to pick up the frequencies an engine makes when knock occurs. So, provided the sensor is set at the correct sensitivity, the engine will experience knock, and only then the sensor will communicate with the PCM to retard timing.

Most quality units don't take much if any additional time to warm up. I agree to a point about engine wear with cold coolant temperatures but unless you live in the frozen tundra this should not be an issue. I would not recommend any lower than a 180* t-stat.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:47 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

If there was any problem with detonation in the Hemi using the stock thermostat, you would hear about it from a variety of people, as the Hemi is used in so many applications. I've not heard of one complaint anywhere on a Hemi, and 99% of them do not have a CC, so are laden with carbon buildup.
A 180 t-stat and aftermarket CAI and catback are all a waste of money on a Jeep Hemi, it will just make noise and run worse than it did stock.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:14 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

In my Hemi WK with the stock thermostat, the only time I get KR is once in a while with the Superchips 91 tune, or if I advance the timing too much with the Diablosport tuner. Under "normal" driving conditions, I don't get any KR. Carbon build up, due to the lousy crankcase ventilation system, will definitely increase the potential for KR. For those that live in colder climates, if you must put in a lower thermostat, I wouldn't go lower than ~190*, or you may end up getting the "too slow warming up" code, like I was getting on my WK.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:01 PM
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Re: Cam swap...what else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmsfun View Post
If there was any problem with detonation in the Hemi using the stock thermostat, you would hear about it from a variety of people, as the Hemi is used in so many applications. I've not heard of one complaint anywhere on a Hemi, and 99% of them do not have a CC, so are laden with carbon buildup.
A 180 t-stat and aftermarket CAI and catback are all a waste of money on a Jeep Hemi, it will just make noise and run worse than it did stock.
95+% of the logs I received from Jeeps running DSP canned tunes- which have desensitized knock sensors to begin with- had several degrees of WOT knock retard. Some were running catch cans, some were not (Having the CC's DEFINITELY helped). It's a combination of raised timing, stock or similiar to stock fueling delays, potentially faulty crankcase ventilation, etc etc. Nothing against DSP, DSP is the best thing that ever happened to the greater Hemi community, but just discussing what I found...which is exactly the same as what Mike @ DSP has found.

Of course, a seafoam session could have cleared out carbon deposits that may be contributing to the KR. Would it have eliminated it? Maybe. No amount of seafoam is going to get rid of the oily crap that sits on the bottom of most 5.7/6.1 manifold plenums prior to installing catch can.

The 180 or 190 stat just adds a little extra margin for protection against detonation. Is it a mandatory item? No, but it isn't a terrible idea to have one.

You're not going to see much if any knock retard on a stock Hemi tune, the stock tune is pretty conservative. And on a stock truck, 180 stat isn't really needed. The thread is about a to-be-cammed truck.
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