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  #829  
Old 11-05-2013, 05:08 PM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

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Originally Posted by BobT View Post
Hey guys, 4x4, softroader, chassis, monocoque, transfer case, lockers these are just words. Words can be terribly divisive for little purpose. What matters is performance.
Absolutely. As I said quite a few posts back, some see the term 'softroader' as an insult or derogatory. I don't. I think it says a lot that Jeep has taken a car based platform that handles well on road and have got such good off road performance out of it (from what I read at this stage).

And as others have pointed out, more and more manufacturers are going towards unibody now that the technology is there to maintain strength and the electronic aids are so good. The benefits are less weight and better onroad performance, while maintaining offroad ability. But they aren't the traditional small truck designs that 4WDs use to be. I guess utes will likely retain the ladder chassis and more mechanical systems.
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  #830  
Old 11-05-2013, 07:17 PM
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Yes it was me who brought up the xy, I was trying to use it as an example against benno's claim that to be a real 4x4 the vehicle needs to have a chassis, it was meant to be an example of a road car with a chassis that was never a 4x4, fail on both counts when I chose the xy, In my opinion a soft roader is a vehicle with AWD and no low range and road car suspension travel, a 4x4 is a vehicle with full time or part time 4x4 with a low range with greater wheel travel than a road car and generally heavier duty drive line components, having a chassis or not has never come into the description or been a defining factor in vehicle classification for as long as I have known, certainly when I was swinging spanners for a living and now as a fire rescue officer a chassis is not a defining factor in classifying a vehicle as a 4x4, any hoow, I think this has hi jacked this thread for long enough, most who own a WK2GC and driven on sand (after having the sand fix if needed) say that the GC is a good sand vehicle, like all 4x4's if in doubt put it in low ;-)
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  #831  
Old 11-05-2013, 07:54 PM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

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Originally Posted by yoda42 View Post
Yes it was me who brought up the xy, I was trying to use it as an example against benno's claim that to be a real 4x4 the vehicle needs to have a chassis, it was meant to be an example of a road car with a chassis that was never a 4x4, fail on both counts when I chose the xy, In my opinion a soft roader is a vehicle with AWD and no low range and road car suspension travel, a 4x4 is a vehicle with full time or part time 4x4 with a low range with greater wheel travel than a road car and generally heavier duty drive line components, having a chassis or not has never come into the description or been a defining factor in vehicle classification for as long as I have known, certainly when I was swinging spanners for a living and now as a fire rescue officer a chassis is not a defining factor in classifying a vehicle as a 4x4, any hoow, I think this has hi jacked this thread for long enough, most who own a WK2GC and driven on sand (after having the sand fix if needed) say that the GC is a good sand vehicle, like all 4x4's if in doubt put it in low ;-)
Ok, I understand you'd like to move back to the thread topic, but just to respond to this (perhaps we should start a new thread on it), I was arguing that a ladder chassis is my definition of a traditional 4WD, that is the way 4WDs were traditionally built on small truck style chassis. Any vehicle that can send power to all 4 wheels is a "real" 4wd.

Fulltime 4WD and AWD are the same thing, they both allow slip in the center diff so they can be run full time on bitumen or offroad. I know some AWDs send all power to the front, then divert some to the back when slip is detected, but there are exceptions.

I think what you might be getting at here is that a 'real' 4WD should have the ability to lock the center diff or have a locked transfer case (the x-trail and Murano allow you to do this). But then we could also argue that to be a real 4WD all diffs should be lockable so all 4 wheels turn under power at all times.

I don't see how gear ratios define a vehicle, the subarus provide a low range, it doesn't make them a traditional 4wd. Sticking different cogs in a gear box doesn't make the vehicle a 4WD.

I have also heard the suggestion that a 'real' 4WD could be defined by having live axles, anything with IFS is a softroader, but that would apply to almost all 4WDs these days.

As I said before, I think what changes like IFS, unibody design and electronic driver aids show is that technology is allowing car like platforms to perform as well or better off road than traditional 4WDs do, and the result is more manufacturers will employ soft-road designs in their products. The car like handling is what differentiates the design from the traditional truck like 4WD designs of the past, IMO.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:05 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

Just to confuse the issue, might I chime in on the issue of locking centre diffs. From what I can make out, the GC doesn't have a locking centre diff. There is some confusion as to what a 50/50 torque distribution means. The MP3023 transfer case is essentially an open diff with an electronically controlled clutch on the front shaft. With the clutch disengaged, we have a RWD vehicle. Jeep doesn't give us that option. With the clutch partly engaged, varying amounts of torque can be applied to the front wheels. With the clutch fully engaged, it becomes a simple open diff. The transfer case divides torque 50/50 front and rear. This is precisely what open diffs do. A locked diff ensured that the front and rear drive shafts always rotate at the same speed. If the front wheels slip, all the torque goes to the rear, not 50/50. Lockers were great in their day but with electronic TC, they are pretty well obsolete.
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  #833  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:03 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

I would consider anything without both a dual range gear box (ie low range) and a resonable amount of clearance a softroader. This is what the 4wd press (who coined the term) used to use. I certainly don't consider the different 'frame' construction methods has anthing to do with it, but each to there own opinion. Having owned various jeeps over the 18 years from a XJ to my current WK2 there is nothing 'soft' about them and they had no issues with 'keeping up' any other 4wd.
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  #834  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:16 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobT View Post
Just to confuse the issue, might I chime in on the issue of locking centre diffs. From what I can make out, the GC doesn't have a locking centre diff. There is some confusion as to what a 50/50 torque distribution means. The MP3023 transfer case is essentially an open diff with an electronically controlled clutch on the front shaft. With the clutch disengaged, we have a RWD vehicle. Jeep doesn't give us that option. With the clutch partly engaged, varying amounts of torque can be applied to the front wheels. With the clutch fully engaged, it becomes a simple open diff. The transfer case divides torque 50/50 front and rear. This is precisely what open diffs do. A locked diff ensured that the front and rear drive shafts always rotate at the same speed. If the front wheels slip, all the torque goes to the rear, not 50/50. Lockers were great in their day but with electronic TC, they are pretty well obsolete.
Bob the GC uses an NV245 centre diff which is capable of locking. It is always locked in low range! In high range, yes it is defaults to 52/48 torque distribution, but can vary that to apply up to 100% of torque to the required axle - i.e. locked.
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  #835  
Old 11-06-2013, 05:24 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

Since this is a sand driving thread - to me a softroader is a vehicle in which you would not dare to confidently drive on the likes of Fraser or Moreton Island (other than the hard wet sand).
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  #836  
Old 11-06-2013, 06:03 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roachy View Post
I would consider anything without both a dual range gear box (ie low range) and a resonable amount of clearance a softroader. This is what the 4wd press (who coined the term) used to use. I certainly don't consider the different 'frame' construction methods has anthing to do with it, but each to there own opinion. Having owned various jeeps over the 18 years from a XJ to my current WK2 there is nothing 'soft' about them and they had no issues with 'keeping up' any other 4wd.
I still think a number of subbies would fit into this definition, many manuals had low range and good clearance. You could put a lift kit on a commodore and stick a low range gear box in, but I don't think it would be a 4WD.

I've seen the odd XJ with chassis stiffners on them, they were a bit soft.

The common theme I hear in this discussion is that a GC (or other example) can 'keep up' off road so it can't be soft. That seems to be the sticking point, soft is supposedly a measure of capability.

I tend to look at softroader as being the same thing as a crossover, which relates to being car based. Off road capability varies on so many things, and it is very subjective, a kluger could probably 'keep up' with me offroad

The car based platform of the unibody as opposed to the ladder frame of the traditional truck based 4WDs is a constant and fundamental design component. Everything else can be changed.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:13 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

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Originally Posted by Brett View Post
Since this is a sand driving thread - to me a softroader is a vehicle in which you would not dare to confidently drive on the likes of Fraser or Moreton Island (other than the hard wet sand).
Right, but you saw that Territory on Fraser, and Mendo saw a few others:
xtrail
Rav4
Touraeg
MB M class
Porsche cayenne

Straddie was real soft when I went there a month or so ago. I only have the center diff lock and it wasn't good enough to get up some of the access tracks off the beach. As soon as you start going up and lose momentum it was all over.

I could have used some TC aids or a rear diff lock. The air suspension helped be back out though.

Made me think that a 'soft roader' with good clearance and good electronics would probably go further than I did. Low range didn't come into it.
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  #838  
Old 11-06-2013, 06:24 AM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

Well I did say "confidently".
I do wonder how many times those other vehicles were recovered/snatched out of the bog.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post

I still think a number of subbies would fit into this definition, many manuals had low range and good clearance. You could put a lift kit on a commodore and stick a low range gear box in, but I don't think it would be a 4WD.

I've seen the odd XJ with chassis stiffners on them, they were a bit soft.

The common theme I hear in this discussion is that a GC (or other example) can 'keep up' off road so it can't be soft. That seems to be the sticking point, soft is supposedly a measure of capability.

I tend to look at softroader as being the same thing as a crossover, which relates to being car based. Off road capability varies on so many things, and it is very subjective, a kluger could probably 'keep up' with me offroad

The car based platform of the unibody as opposed to the ladder frame of the traditional truck based 4WDs is a constant and fundamental design component. Everything else can be changed.
I remember this very silly argument mainly with Toyota drivers when they were outraged at Nissan when they produced the first coil sprung 4x4 most said it would never last was not a real 4x4 and was now just a cross over soft roader History has proven them wrong as history will prover others wrong today.

Most vehicles that the purest label real 4 wheel drivers within a few years will ALL be going unibody construction simple fact.
I wonder what argument they will use then?
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:44 PM
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Re: Grand Cherokee + sand = FAIL

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Originally Posted by fwdjeep View Post
I remember this very silly argument mainly with Toyota drivers when they were outraged at Nissan when they produced the first coil sprung 4x4 most said it would never last was not a real 4x4 and was now just a cross over soft roader History has proven them wrong as history will prover others wrong today.

Most vehicles that the purest label real 4 wheel drivers within a few years will ALL be going unibody construction simple fact.
I wonder what argument they will use then?
I'm actually saying the opposite. I'm saying that the unibody designs and electronic aids are so good now that they are better on road and in a lot of cases more capable offroad than a lot of traditional 4WDs. As I already said, I expect the GC to do better than my 100 cruiser off road. My description of softroader is purely to decribe the car based platform that these vehicles use, as compared to the old heavy ladder chassis of the traditional 4WD. It isn't a judgement of off-road ability, IMO.
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