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  #637  
Old 01-28-2015, 04:42 AM
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Angry Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by GMWK2 View Post
Still a complete joke. Try this scenario:

So I'm 5 minutes from my carpark in the city, 10 minutes till I'm due at meeting with a client. "Regen, keep driving" message comes up. So I ring my client and say, "sorry, I'm going to be late - I cannot stop my car". So I try and keep driving but it is peak hour and I'm stopped in traffic. Car goes onto limp mode and dies on George Street.

What utter ridiculousness. Jeep should be panned for selling a car with a clear design flaw.

Vent over.
In my case, I had driven into the car park to catch a ferry to work. I was 10 minutes early but not enough. The error came up. I couldn't keep driving. What a joke!

This is a total show stopper. I have lost all faith in Jeep to fix this issue, and lost all faith in Reef City Motors, our local Dealership.

How ridiculous is it that you have to have a 30 minute highway drive every week or it will go into limp mode?

I agree that this is a serious design flaw that the sales team had absolutely no clue about when they sold the vehicle. Here is a full time 4WD that will go into limp mode if you do some serious 4 wheel driving with it, particularly if you're driving at low revs (as with many 4WD tracks). It is very dangerous, and all Jeep owners should be warned that their life may be in danger if they take their vehicle to a remote location in Central Australia.

I am one of the people who received a new DPF, and all the indications were that this would solve the problem. It didn't. As soon as I got back to city driving for a week, this problem came back.

To add insult to injury, there is the audio problem with the navigation system. It grossly mispronounces street names. Pretty minor, but you'd expect better if you pay that much for a vehicle. So I printed out the details of the patch and gave it to the dealers.

They forgot to install it. They told me to take it back some other time to get it fixed. I dropped it in yesterday. It wasn't fixed. Their story? "We can't find any record of any audio fault anywhere, and we tried it on a new Jeep. It was doing exactly the same, so it must be ok. (just pause to contemplate the stupidity of that statement)

So the fact that every other new Jeep has this issue means that it's not a fault? The fact that the voice recognition doesn't work in the nav. system in Australia? Oh that's not a fault either, because all Jeeps have the same issue.

So I got the latest software recall too.

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  #638  
Old 01-28-2015, 04:54 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

Bugger ! Again after one week - that is just ridiculous. So what is happening now for you Jim ? Oh I hope we haven't bought into this - our service guy is 45mins away from us - fine, Jeep Assist has been towing it but we have to organise to go and pick her up. We are currently a 4 person family with a 3 seater van - lucky hubby is enjoying the push bike again.
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  #639  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:06 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Crocko View Post
Bugger ! Again after one week - that is just ridiculous. So what is happening now for you Jim ? Oh I hope we haven't bought into this - our service guy is 45mins away from us - fine, Jeep Assist has been towing it but we have to organise to go and pick her up. We are currently a 4 person family with a 3 seater van - lucky hubby is enjoying the push bike again.
Well the service rep said that unless you do at least one 40 minute (20 each way) highway trip every week, this problem will keep happening. Fortunately the car is back to normal (no limp mode for now), but now I have to fit a highway trip every week into my already busy schedule.

Apparently the forced regen. takes about an hour to perform. There are other diesel vehicles that don't have this problem, so it's clearly a design fault.

So much for Car of the Year.
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  #640  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:28 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

It's really important that if you get some line about specific usage requirements, you insist they write it down. When they will not, stand up to their unofficial statement and call it for what it is... which is utter crap. If it was a mandated requirement it'd be in the handbook, and legally it'd need to be disclosed prior to purchase.

But if by some chance you did get it in writing... please share.

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  #641  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:34 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

Unbelievable ! Well after our first 'limp' mode on 1 December 14 we completed 8 return trips (everyone at least 45mins to 2hr 1/2 each way) in the 7 weeks it took to go into 'limp' mode again (without any warning) so that blows his theory. We were told to drive the Jeep 'harder' and not to use it for short trips to the shops etc. Wow, reading back through the start of this thread makes me feel ill - that this has been happening for over year and still happening and not a word said at the sales pitch about driving/owning a diesel let alone a re-call of some sort to fix this - as I said above - I now have no confidence in driving my beautiful Jeep - we live in a country town; we tow a boat; we go away - Im not going to live my life around what a car might or might not do. gggggggrrrrrrrrr - really ???? I bought a Jeep !! Why !!!
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  #642  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:47 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

You know that ad where the neighbours' grass is overgrown and they are nowhere to be found? Maybe they're stuck out past the black stump somewhere with a vehicle in limp mode.

Maybe in a future ad, we'll have a talking skeleton saying "I bought a Jeep"
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  #643  
Old 01-28-2015, 07:18 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by JimQldAust View Post
Well the service rep said that unless you do at least one 40 minute (20 each way) highway trip every week, this problem will keep happening. Fortunately the car is back to normal (no limp mode for now), but now I have to fit a highway trip every week into my already busy schedule.

Apparently the forced regen. takes about an hour to perform. There are other diesel vehicles that don't have this problem, so it's clearly a design fault.

So much for Car of the Year.

When dealing with service guy, I now simply don't know whether I shall continue to trust what they say or not to.

You had limp mode, had dpf replaced, now have limp mode again??
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  #644  
Old 01-28-2015, 07:49 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

I've been doing a little bit of homework here.

Driving on the highway for 30 minutes every week, or even every other day is not going to be enough to keep the DPF clear just by itself.

The reason for this is that soot burns off very slowly at the temperatures normally cruising on the highway. (8th gear and 110kph is not really loading the engine very much at all, is it?). The 8 speed box is great for economy but since we're not burning so much fuel the EGT (exhaust gas temp) is low.

To get the temps up high enough you have to be driving with the engine under load like going up a very long hill and or towing something heavy up hill. Even then it would not be sustained long enough to fully clear the filter.



This diagram i found shows how fast "an amount" of soot oxidises at various temperatures. This test was probably done in lab and not in a truck but the chemistry is the same.

600 C - very fast and complete soot burn, 400 C - pretty slow and only partial burn


I drove about 470km on a round trip on the highway last Sunday.
I had the OBDLink reader running and monitoring the CAT temp1. (PID 3C)
The app i am using doesnt decode the EGT properly. (PID 78 is 9bytes of data, it might be looking at the wrong part).
There seems to be 3 ? temp sensors in the exhaust but I haven't worked them out yet.

I found another android app which reads EGT1 and seemingly some DPF data (yet to be verified) but it keeps crashing on me after a minute or so.
The EGT sensor varies very rapidly with engine load. I've seen temps 200 to over 500C within several seconds.
The CAT temp is a more stable value which is sort of representative of the whole system.

approximate temps
Idling in traffic stopped = 200 C
Driving in normal urban traffic flow gently up to 60kph = 200 - 250C
Driving in normal traffic flowing up to 80kph = can go up to 300 C
Highway drivng 110kph in 8th on flat = 300-350 C
Highway driving up and incline (kicks down to 7th) = up to 450 C
Highway driving downhill foot off throttle = cools down to below 150 C.

Driving in 6th or 7th at higher revs doesn't increase the temp either as it is the load and how much fuel is injected that raises the temps.
Higher revs with light load pumps more airflow and actually cools it down.

In 4hrs of highway driving i only saw it go over 450C for a cumulative time of a few minutes. Most of the time it was only 270 - 350 C range.

Note: I was not being a leadfoot, just normal driving (it was double demerits on the weekend remember).
Flooring the pedal does bring the temps up more of course but impossible to keep them high and also keep your drivers license.

To burn the the soot of really quickly, 600 C is where it needs to be.
Maybe the DPF temp is a bit higher than i'm measuring at the CAT but keeping it high enough long enough to burn completely clear i'm not so sure about that.

If it cant clean just driving and and get up to 600 C it'll eventually have to do a regen, injecting fuel in the exhaust. This is fine if it works as it should, burns the soot off quickly and effectivley and it doesn't go limp mode. If the software works properly it and triggers it correctly it should do it.

I think even driving on the highway some of the time you would still be accumulating soot in the DPF rather than clearing it out.

I've found a parameter on a docunment the SAE.org site (thanks google) that gives some sort of calculated value % full status, but waiting to see if it is reading properly with meaningful values. Every time I check the parameter value it is a little bit higher, filter is slowly filling up
Basically i'm waiting for it to regen (again?), and see when and what it does.

more later.
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  #645  
Old 01-28-2015, 07:59 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Steve1307 View Post
I've been doing a little bit of homework here.
Understatement of the year!

Let us know what the crashing app is and we can try it across varying hardware.

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  #646  
Old 01-28-2015, 09:23 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Barboots View Post
Understatement of the year!

Let us know what the crashing app is and we can try it across varying hardware.

Cheers,
Steve
It's called OBD Facile - it's actually French but can install in English.
The help manual (pdf) is only partly translated though.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....android&hl=en

I am just running the free one. Upgrading to premium costs something like 20 euro.



website:
Outils OBD Facile - Info sur l'OBD, l'ELM327 et le diagnostic automobile
There is a PC based version to which i tried this morning with the laptop on the passenger seat on the way to work and once it got it to connect eventually it didn't crash, in the 5 minutes i had it on.

It is the only app which when you connect you can select a manufacturer profile. Including Jeep !!!
it might not be the full WK2 set of PID as it's not shown here.
Jeep (Cherokee, Commander, Laredo, Patriot) compatibles ELM 327 et OBD2 - Outils OBD Facile

There are just more of the Mode 01 PIDs than all the other apps i tried but doesn't appear to have any of the Mode 22 "top secret" proprietary PIDs listed and decoded.
Anyway, I wouldn't dare touch any of that, as it could stuff the calibrations of all sorts of things poking around in there.

Read only of more values in Mode 1 is all i'm after.



This part is interesting pertaining to this thread.

PID $8B Data byte C is the "Normalized trigger for DPF regen" - 0-100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE.org J1979
- Aftertreatment Status PID 8B

DPF_REGEN_PCT shall indicate the normalized DPF loading, time, distance, drive cycles or other criteria before the next DPF regen where 0% means the DPF is clean (a regen just occurred) and 100% means the DPF is fully loaded.
When there are multiple criteria to trigger a regen, the one that is closest to triggering the regen shall be displayed.
on the OBD facile app. it is shown O-8B-4 as a %.

Here's 3 screenshot of the app on my phone taken on 3 different times. The last one was today.



See the figure at the bottom. It's slowly increased 1.5% in the last couple of days and that only after about 50k of 8 or so very short trips driving in traffic.
Its a calculated value so I'll just check if it keeps going up or if I drive like a madman might it clear? I'm waiting for it to get up to the setpoint to trigger a regen. 80% ? 100%?
A regen will be indicated by the exhaust temps going right up 600C+ for at least several minutes.


Note there is also a value for the DPF Differential pressure. O-7A-0 . It actually works but the zero is offset by 3276.7 mbar and scaling might be wrong too.

Another data bit is for current Regen status - 0 = no, 1 =yes
Yet anaother data bit is for Regen type - 0 = passive, 1 = active.
I don't know if these work. They both read zero, which is correct when its not doing regen.

There is other data listed for average time between regen and average distance between regen but I'm not sure if they are supported.
They always display Zero.


The very stable app that I'm using is this
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....OBDLink&hl=en
but it only works with my type of BT adapter.

I haven't tried the paid version of Torque.
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  #647  
Old 01-28-2015, 10:09 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Steve1307 View Post

To burn the the soot of really quickly, 600 C is where it needs to be.
.....
.....



more later.
I should mention that the soot can burn off at lower temperatures than 600 C but just not as rapidly.

There are several chemical reactions going on in there.


It can burn off at temps between 250 -400 C in the exhaust system because normally there will be some NO2 present and the NO2 reacts with the soot at a lower temperature.

In an active regen when the fuel is injected and the EGR doesn't recirc the exhaust but lets air through then soot reacts with the oxygen (O2) instead.
Carbon (soot) reacts with oxygen only at the higher temperatures 550C+ but it burns off really quickly.

The DPF construction itself also helps (not specific to Jeep but in genral DPF design). The DPF has lots of little channels in it with some sort of catalyst coating ("catalyst washcoat") and this contact with the catalyst over the extended surface area in the channels, helps to lower the activation energy to start the reaction to burn the soot.

When you think about it, If the DPF was really really badly clogged up with soot in all the channels then this would mean that the catalyst coating would not be effective at all.
I guess this is probably when the mechanic would say the filter is completely stuffed and tell you how much a replacement costs, whilst simultaneously kicking you in the plums.
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  #648  
Old 01-28-2015, 04:36 PM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by JimQldAust View Post
How ridiculous is it that you have to have a 30 minute highway drive every week or it will go into limp mode?
You don't, I drive mine on numerous 2-5 min trips with no problem, then once a fortnight or month go for a drive on the highway for 20-30mins. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do this in any diesel car.

In any case, if the filter is filling up it SHOULD give you a warning and tell you to drive on the highway BEFORE it goes into limp.

The service techs tell customers this crap because they don't understand the system, and have no means to fix it. They should be applying the software update for this issue as a starting point.
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