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  #985  
Old 03-17-2015, 03:50 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Futuresystem View Post

Awesome! It's really good to know it's doing what it should, and whilst that occurs, I have no chance of a limp mode due to DPF full.
I was particularly pleased that it all worked in a 70 zone with fairly heavy traffic.

Thanks again Steve.
Love your work!
That's very encouraging for the rest of us out there wondering if we are suddenly going to go limp

Kudos to Steve1307 for all his research

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  #986  
Old 03-17-2015, 07:22 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Barboots View Post

Basically, the only regeneration anyone has sighted so far occurs during an active regeneration cycle. The rest is just varying degrees of accumulation.

Cheers,
Steve
That's certainly my experience thus far.
I have not yet seen anything but DPF% increasing, even when towing at highway speeds AND up hills.
I've yet to see any evidence of "passive regeneration."

I'll keep watching, have to tow my 3 tonne van 100+ klms tomorrow on the highway. I should start the trip with the DPF under 10%, it will be interesting to see what it is after 100klms towing at 100+ kph.

If I see ANY evidence of "passive regeneration", you'll hear about it here.

Cya
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  #987  
Old 03-17-2015, 07:26 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

Oooooh don't be towing a caravan faster than 90... all the nannies will come out of the woodwork screaming "we're all going to die" and "what about the children?"!
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  #988  
Old 03-17-2015, 09:11 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Futuresystem View Post
That's certainly my experience thus far.
I have not yet seen anything but DPF% increasing, even when towing at highway speeds AND up hills.
I've yet to see any evidence of "passive regeneration."

I'll keep watching, have to tow my 3 tonne van 100+ klms tomorrow on the highway. I should start the trip with the DPF under 10%, it will be interesting to see what it is after 100klms towing at 100+ kph.

If I see ANY evidence of "passive regeneration", you'll hear about it here.

Cya
I actually think I have seen a passive regeneration, It happened two days ago towing a heavy van into a headwind. The CAT temp stayed up in the mid to high 450 degrees. I had seen an active regeneration just after the start of the trip and the DPF dropped to 8.2%, It then very steadily climbed going up .4% slowly until it reached 10.6% It was while we were driving over a fairly clear plain and it was here we encountered a fairheadwind that lasted quite some distance, To my amazement after a time the DPF % actually dropped to 10.2% and stayed there for a considerable time before resuming its steady climb. It is a section I often encounted headwinds and in my old 4.2ltr patrol, I used to nearly push the pedal through the follr to maintain and speed. I don't think a hill climb would do it unless it was a really really long hill like some on the New England tablelands.
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  #989  
Old 03-17-2015, 11:17 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
Passive regen is just normal heat in the exhaust system burning off 'some' soot, but probably not enough to reduce the level faster than what is being caught while driving. It will just reduce the rate at which it fills. You might notice this more so at higher revs and when the car is under load (particularly if the EGR valve closes).

Yep, Benno is exactly right as I understand it.

The soot oxidises at different rates depending in the temperature and the gases present.
I posted a little bit about this back in January.


Here's a graph of rates of soot oxidation.
This was done in a lab somewhere as part of a thesis i looked at, and not in a vehicle but anyway you can generally see that at higher temps (600C) the soot burns off really fast and completely and at lower temps (<500) it is much slower.


This is the chemical reaction for rapid oxidation in an "active" regen with fuel injected to get the temps up.

C + O2 -----600C-----> CO2

This reaction really doesn't get going until 500-520C and then is optimum at about 660C. (tested with 10% O2 in the system)

The free oxygen comes from the excess intake air with oxygen coming in straight through the combustion chamber. The EGR valve is at 0% during active regen, (so no recirc of exhaust gas), and the air goes straight through and there should be some free oxygen that makes it through to the exhaust.


The Passive soot oxidation is occuring at lower temperatures and is mostly a different chemical reaction.

C + NO2 -------> CO2 + 2NO
This reaction is occuring (slowly) at around 250 C and more rapidly as it get hotter. It is still not as fast as the first reaction.


Where does the NO2 come from?
The NO2 is produced in the combustion process at very high temps.
NO2 is undesirable so to limit it's production the combustion chamber is cooled down by opening the EGR to recirculate "non-combustible" exhaust gas and reduce the NO2.


The EGR is constantly and rapidly adjusting to help maintain the right combustion chamber temps and limiting the NOx production.

When you put your foot down the EGR reduces the recirc and lets through more fresh air as the engine needs to produce more power. This does make more NO2 but this actually helps with the passive soot oxidation.
Put your foot down must be the answer, and get those temps up.


From there it gets even more complicated.

The Americans have this extra feature where they inject NH3 ( ammonia) from a Urea tank they have.
This is all to reduce the NOx emissions and help reduce the temperature at which the soot will oxidise most completely when its combined with urea injection.
The study i looked at , showed that with urea injection was working significantly at >300C and it was at it's fastest rate at about 430 C and could actually 90% clean a filter at that temperature.

In the NA model I think you could actually clean the filter by "taking it for a run on the highway".

That same line that that the dealers regurgitate here probably wouldn't work on our model.
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  #990  
Old 03-17-2015, 11:27 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dixonf View Post
I actually think I have seen a passive regeneration, It happened two days ago towing a heavy van into a headwind. The CAT temp stayed up in the mid to high 450 degrees. I had seen an active regeneration just after the start of the trip and the DPF dropped to 8.2%, It then very steadily climbed going up .4% slowly until it reached 10.6% It was while we were driving over a fairly clear plain and it was here we encountered a fairheadwind that lasted quite some distance, To my amazement after a time the DPF % actually dropped to 10.2% and stayed there for a considerable time before resuming its steady climb. It is a section I often encounted headwinds and in my old 4.2ltr patrol, I used to nearly push the pedal through the follr to maintain and speed.

Well there you go. Passive regen 0.4% reduction in soot load. We have a winner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dixonf
I don't think a hill climb would do it unless it was a really really long hill like some on the New England tablelands.
At Easter i'll be doing that, driving up the long big hill north of Tamworth so we'll see what happens there.
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  #991  
Old 03-18-2015, 12:20 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barboots View Post
Oooooh don't be towing a caravan faster than 90... all the nannies will come out of the woodwork screaming "we're all going to die" and "what about the children?"!

Such is life.




And as for passive regeneration, I stated earlier on that you'd probably need to do 180kmh for it to happen. I'm still of that opinion! Although some of us may occasionally see a minuscule reduction, 99.9% of the time it simply isn't going to happen. (Steve's graph pretty much confirms that.)

Have just driven with our 3T van from the Sunshine Coast to Brisbane, and sat on 110 for nearly the whole of the way -where that was the posted speed limit.
(There were a few small sections of roadwork with an 80k limit.)

CAT temp varied from about 400, to sometimes up to about 525 driving up slight inclines.
When I hit the highway, the DPF level was 13%.
When I hit the end of the 110 limit, the DPF was showing 16%.

ie: at high speed (as high as we can drive legally), AND towing a heavy load, the DPF increased from 13% full to 16% in about 80 odd kilometres.

Passive Regeneration? Hardly! Perhaps a slightly lower rate of filling but that's it.

Cya
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  #992  
Old 03-18-2015, 12:31 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Steve1307 View Post
Well there you go. Passive regen 0.4% reduction in soot load. We have a winner.




At Easter i'll be doing that, driving up the long big hill north of Tamworth so we'll see what happens there.
Moonbi hill I think it is if memory serves me.

Towing? Or not?

I'd be interested to see how your coolant and oil temp goes in such circumstances. I'm seeing rapid temp rise on hills with a van on the back, though it all stops just before it gets to the red. I always watch it on the OBDII and haven't seen it hit 120, but it gets close to that rather quickly.

I'm reasonably convinced it will be ok in the worst circumstances (hot day, big hill, van on the back) , but not yet 100% certain. The hills I've done so far have always been either on cooler days OR no van on the back.

Cya
David

PS Thanks Steve for the graph and other info. Certainly makes more sense now.
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  #993  
Old 03-18-2015, 01:32 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Futuresystem View Post
I'm seeing rapid temp rise on hills with a van on the back, though it all stops just before it gets to the red.
Everyone reports this, I've seen it do similar when doing hill climbing off road (no towing). My take on this is the EGR is closing due to the increased load and resulting higher engine temp. Also known as working as expected.
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Old 03-18-2015, 02:26 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuresystem View Post
Moonbi hill I think it is if memory serves me.

Towing? Or not?

I'd be interested to see how your coolant and oil temp goes in such circumstances. I'm seeing rapid temp rise on hills with a van on the back, though it all stops just before it gets to the red. I always watch it on the OBDII and haven't seen it hit 120, but it gets close to that rather quickly.

I'm reasonably convinced it will be ok in the worst circumstances (hot day, big hill, van on the back) , but not yet 100% certain. The hills I've done so far have always been either on cooler days OR no van on the back.

Cya
David

PS Thanks Steve for the graph and other info. Certainly makes more sense now.
The day I picked up our new van (only 1.5T) in South Nowra last November was a scorcher. So going up Mt Ousley at 80kph, aircon going (yes, dumb I know), outside temp almost 40c, temp guage reached just short of the red at the top. Didn't get to the stage of any warnings etc and came down quickly on the downhill/flat. As good a test as any I thought.
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  #995  
Old 03-18-2015, 02:34 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Qpr39 View Post
The day I picked up our new van (only 1.5T) in South Nowra last November was a scorcher. So going up Mt Ousley at 80kph, aircon going (yes, dumb I know), outside temp almost 40c, temp guage reached just short of the red at the top. Didn't get to the stage of any warnings etc and came down quickly on the downhill/flat. As good a test as any I thought.
Thanks.
Yes, sounds like a good test, (though my van is heavier.)

Anyway, I have yet to hear of one actually overheating, it's just a bit scary watching the gauge.

Cya
David
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Old 03-18-2015, 04:22 AM
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Re: Is DPF issue for 2014 CRD fixed now?

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Originally Posted by Futuresystem View Post
Thanks.
Yes, sounds like a good test, (though my van is heavier.)

Anyway, I have yet to hear of one actually overheating, it's just a bit scary watching the gauge.

Cya
David
Here's a sad story:

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Originally Posted by barry smith View Post
Hi all,
Sad to say I have encountered a serious motor problem in my 14 Limited diesel (12,000 km) First symptom was noisy injectors as the motor warmed up. It sounded like a 20 year old diesel, VERY clattery. However, once warm, everything normal (About 10km)
I reported same to dealer.
2 weeks ago, we were heading to the coast, for a seachange, with our 20 foot, (about 2.5 ton ) van on, and I noticed the temperatures of both motor oil and motor water coming up. Ambient 26 degrees. I pulled up at Moonbi, (just before the Moonbi Range) to check the van brakes we not dragging or any other sign of a problem. Everything seemed just fine.
As I had run this range before with this car and van, I decided to push on, keep the revs up a bit and taking it easy.
About 30 meters from the top, we entered limp mode, I snuck to the top and pulled over.We came out of limp mode as I pulled over. Radiator had boiled but was now coming down in temp. However , oil temp was still going up !!! As it was a nice downhill run for a few km, I decided to push on. Water temp came right down, but oil temp continued to rise !!
We pulled into Bendemeer, oil temp was now show 148 degrees, stopped motor to let is cool right down (2 hours), then slowly topped up the watrer, motor on idle. The top plastic water tank was like a small volcano, and did not settle down, seemed like a blown head gasket. NO noises from motor.
Vehicle tilt trayed to Tamworth dealer, caravan recovered next day.
Dealer removed heads, no problem here !!! Suggestion made it might be the EGR (exhaust gas recirculator). Specialist testing revealed it was indeed the problem, pressure testing revealed a good leak.
Vehicle still at dealers whilst Jeep Aust make up their minds what to do. I have a loan Camry (Wahoo).
I will keep you posted as this story progresses.
PS Spent a lot of time on the internet boning up on EGR...these little suckers can be really troublesome, especially in some makes. I have been on the Jeep forums for the past 2 years (this is my second WK2), I have never read of a problem similar to this.
Barry
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