Go Back   Jeep Garage - Jeep Forum > Jeep Platform Discussion > Grand Cherokee - WK2 - > Export Grand Cherokee 2011+

Join Jeep Garage Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
  #697  
Old 03-13-2014, 09:49 PM
allypally's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2012 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: NW Sydney
Posts: 2,159
Thanks: 24
Thanked 125 Times in 104 Posts
Rep Power: 55560
allypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond reputeallypally has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Towing thread

bags NOT sitting in the trailer when they do it.
__________________

__________________
MY12 Overland CRD
Cherry Red
Saddle Interior.
Front Recovery Hook.
Reply With Quote
  #698  
Old 03-13-2014, 11:00 PM
Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Hobart Tasmania OZ
Posts: 84
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 443
Silverhammer is on a distinguished road
Steve
Yeah forgot about the gyro gear loose stuff to avoid collisions, thanks for the correction. But it is consistent with my view that active brake lights are and should be only an indicator of speed reduction not stability tech or traction aids being activated.
Max




Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
__________________

__________________
Silverhammer
MY14 JGC Laredo, white with grey leather and sunroof
" I offer every bit assistance short of real help!"
Reply With Quote
  #699  
Old 03-13-2014, 11:26 PM
Bigskiddy's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney - Australia
Posts: 316
Thanks: 4
Thanked 25 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 814
Bigskiddy is on a distinguished road
From reading that, the car applies the brake of individual wheels, and retards the motor to correct the sway. Hence it would not activate activate the brake lights and would not know what to tell the ESC in the caravan.
I don't know how the ESC on a caravan works. Does it only kick in once the brakes are activated or when it detects the caravan being unstable and kicks in on its own without driver input?

I would hope the latter.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #700  
Old 03-14-2014, 12:21 AM
Barboots's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,157
Thanks: 16
Thanked 85 Times in 72 Posts
Rep Power: 2387
Barboots has disabled reputation
Re: The Towing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverhammer View Post
Steve
Yeah forgot about the gyro gear loose stuff to avoid collisions, thanks for the correction. But it is consistent with my view that active brake lights are and should be only an indicator of speed reduction not stability tech or traction aids being activated.
Max
Nope, not talking about gyros. Actually I don't know what "gyro gear loose stuff" is!

"System applies brake pressure on one front wheel to counteract the yaw induced by the trailer and applies brake pressure to all four wheels to slow the vehicle"

This sounds like speed reduction to me... and I reckon if the brake lights didn't come on when this is happening it'd be madness.

Cheers,
Steve
__________________
2014 Overland CRD
Perth, Western Australia
Reply With Quote
  #701  
Old 03-14-2014, 12:50 AM
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2012 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 631
Thanks: 1
Thanked 53 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 34371
John47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond reputeJohn47 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Towing thread

I've had the TSC come on a couple of times on the dirt road between Cooma and Braidwood in NSW - slick clay surface, high centre crown and raining.
Not travelling fast but a number of times the Jeep felt the van come down the crown and just flickered the light. Only on for a second or so.
Didn't feel any power loss, more like an engine miss.
No feeling of the vehicle braking.
Didn't look to see what the display on the P3 said - that would have shown power to the van brakes.
By my standards, nothing dramatic was going on with the van, but whatever must have been enough to trigger.
System works on mine anyway - but I don't plan to try it out at speed.
John
__________________
2012 Laredo CRD
Bright Silver with Quadralift & front recovery hook - (that has been used unfortunately)
Mopar towbar
Reply With Quote
  #702  
Old 03-14-2014, 01:02 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 81
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 543
Buster01 is on a distinguished road
Re: The Towing thread

We have the alko system on our van. We followed a car towing the exact same van and watched it moving all over the road. Ours did not budge. Would not be without it. Totally separate system with its own computer.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #703  
Old 03-14-2014, 03:26 AM
Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 31
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 308
Traktor has a reputation beyond reputeTraktor has a reputation beyond reputeTraktor has a reputation beyond reputeTraktor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Towing thread

Melbourne to Paynesville March 2014
1.3 tonne boat
tow adults
two children
full boot of sh t

11.3 litres per hundred

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #704  
Old 03-14-2014, 03:28 AM
BobT's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2012 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,669
Thanks: 516
Thanked 65 Times in 57 Posts
Rep Power: 73496
BobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond repute
Garage
Re: The Towing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjgc View Post
Thanks allypall
I have read that it's a great system hope I never have to use it.
But it dose not confirm whether the brake lights come.
It would be good if they did so the caravan is being braked as well.
AL-KO have a new ESC system for the caravan at $1300 all good to have but if the caravan brakes work via the Jeeps TSC then we don't need Alko's system.
So the question remains do the brake lights come on ?

Ps seen your new van on the caravans forum great van looks great have you had a shake down trip yet.
Two point:
  1. ESCs or the TSC are intended to keep the car going in the direction the driver intends, not to slow it down. It does this by judiciously applying some momentary braking to the wheel that requires it and may also cut power momentarily but any overall slowing effect is minimal, certainly not enough to require brake light activation. AFAIK, brake lights are not activated if the driver takes his foot off the accelorator or otherwise uses engine braking so why should they come on in an ESC event? Crash mittigation systems are another matter.
  2. Brake lights comming on on the caravan signify only that the car's brake pedal has been pressed enough to activate the brake light switch. It doesn't necessary mean that any braking is happenning. Braking depends on your brake controller configuration.
__________________
Ordered 9 Nov 2011 - Delivered 3:30pm Friday 13 April 2012
Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 3L CRD, Black Forest Green Pearl, Quadra-lift, Off-road Adventure II, Front Recovery Hook, Mopar Tow Bar, Mopar Rock Rails, 150A Projecta Battery Isolator, Tekonsha P3 Brake Controller, Bridgestone D697 265/60R18 LT, Kimberley Kamper Special Edition
MudMap M7 off/on road sat nav, Chief front recovery hooks "chrome", Chief 3mm bash plate
Reply With Quote
  #705  
Old 03-19-2014, 01:20 AM
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 98
Thanks: 16
Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 417
Gr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Towing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobT View Post
Two point:
  1. Cut from quote.
  2. Brake lights comming on on the caravan signify only that the car's brake pedal has been pressed enough to activate the brake light switch. It doesn't necessary mean that any braking is happenning. Braking depends on your brake controller configuration.
I have a question that may start some discussion or I may just get shot down and embarrassed so much that I never visit this forum again.

This question comes from understanding that there are two types of brake controller:
1. A basic controller that applies a user set level of braking force to the trailer whenever the towing vehicles brake lights are activated by pressing the brake pedal.
2. A proportional brake controller that applies a variable (hence proportional) level of brake force to the trailer dependent on the deceleration being detected by the controller (e.g. P3) which, hopefully, is the same deceleration as the towing vehicle.

Consider this hypothetical: (Assume no engine/gearbox braking)
1. I'm in a towing vehicle fitted with a basic controller, accelerating down a steep incline due to gravity. I gently press the brake pedal just enough to activate the brake lights but little actual brake force is being applied to the towing vehicles brakes. The brake controller 'senses' that the vehicle brake lights have been activated and thus applies the set braking force to the trailer. If the set braking force is weak I may continue to accelerate and I just get hot trailer brakes. If the set braking force is strong then the trailer brakes are now slowing the towing vehicle and I still get hot trailer brakes.
2. Now I've fitted a proportion brake controller: I am accelerating down a steep incline due to gravity. I gently press the brake pedal just enough to activate the brake lights but little actual brake force is being applied to retard vehicle. The brake controller 'senses' that the vehicle brake lights have been activated and thus applies a proportional braking force to the towed vehicle. As I am still accelerating (due to gravity, its a big hill) is the brake controller actually applying brakes to the trailer? I don't believe so, as it is my understanding that only when the brake controller senses deceleration, in conjunction with the brake lights of the towing vehicle being on, that any braking signal is sent to the trailer. So I press harder on the towing vehicle brake pedal so enough brake force is being applied to retard the vehicle. Sensing this deceleration, the proportional controller sends a proportional braking signal to the trailer brakes. No hot brakes and I make it down the hill without needing a shower or new underwear. All good.

So, what does this all mean in relevance to Trailer Sway Control (TSC)?

Whether the brake lights come on or not is only part of the story. What happens when the vehicle TSC activates on the same downhill stretch? Car is accelerating and swaying so TSC applies a little bit of brake force here, a little bit there, etc until no more sway. If the brake lights did come on the proportional controller would not send any braking signal to the trailer as the towing vehicle did not slow down. If however, the towing vehicle was fitted with a 'basic controller'; Would the trailer have been braked? Yes.

Maybe that's why we have an override switch/button/lever readily available (within the cubby).

My two cents worth.

Be kind.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #706  
Old 03-19-2014, 02:08 AM
Jarse's Avatar
Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 107
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 527
Jarse is on a distinguished road
Gr8ness, Generally, your description is correct. With a proportional controller, there is always a voltage applied to the trailer brakes when the brake pedal is pressed, even when at rest. In your point 2, the level of braking applied to the trailer brakes will be determined by the base voltage preset you have made. Typically, this is around 6v (give or take) with the override lever fully to the left. That theoretically is what you should need to almost lock the trailer brakes.
If you vary this, the baseline voltage to the trailer brakes will also vary when you press the brake pedal. Theoretically, with a higher trailer mass, a higher voltage will be needed to get the same baseline braking action. The actual setting you use will depend largely on the point of onset of trailer wheel lock and the driver's personal preference. My crossover needs about 8v to lock its wheels.
TSC does not activate the trailer brakes. It only operates the ESC on the towing vehicle in an effort to stop trailer sway.
__________________
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jarse For This Useful Post:
  #707  
Old 03-19-2014, 02:49 AM
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2014 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 98
Thanks: 16
Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 417
Gr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond reputeGr8Ness has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Towing thread

Jarse,

Thanks for that. I was unaware there was a 'baseline' brake signal.

Does that mean in effect, with a proportional controller, that as soon as activated (by pressing the brake pedal, not TSC ) that the controller sends the pre-set 'baseline' braking force (say 6 Volts) to the trailer brakes PLUS any additional braking voltage proportional to the deceleration. Which, when I think about it makes sense!

For a moment there I thought the basic controllers may have had an advantage over proportional types. Clearly not.

I have a lot to learn before being unleashed onto the roads. Do they teach this sort of stuff on the towing courses mentioned elsewhere in this thread?

All the more reason for a 'towing endorsement' to your drivers licence. Stop people like me going out there half cocked, as it were.

Maybe if there was a 'towing endorsement' and you had it, you could get Trailer/Caravan Registration and Insurance at a discounted rate....

Nay, never happen.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #708  
Old 03-20-2014, 12:33 AM
BobT's Avatar
Premium Member
My Jeep: 2012 3.0L WK2
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,669
Thanks: 516
Thanked 65 Times in 57 Posts
Rep Power: 73496
BobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond reputeBobT has a reputation beyond repute
Garage
Re: The Towing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gr8Ness View Post
Jarse,

Thanks for that. I was unaware there was a 'baseline' brake signal.

Does that mean in effect, with a proportional controller, that as soon as activated (by pressing the brake pedal, not TSC ) that the controller sends the pre-set 'baseline' braking force (say 6 Volts) to the trailer brakes PLUS any additional braking voltage proportional to the deceleration. Which, when I think about it makes sense!

For a moment there I thought the basic controllers may have had an advantage over proportional types. Clearly not.

I have a lot to learn before being unleashed onto the roads. Do they teach this sort of stuff on the towing courses mentioned elsewhere in this thread?

All the more reason for a 'towing endorsement' to your drivers licence. Stop people like me going out there half cocked, as it were.

Maybe if there was a 'towing endorsement' and you had it, you could get Trailer/Caravan Registration and Insurance at a discounted rate....

Nay, never happen.
I think you have it pretty right although exactly how a manufacture programs their proportional controllers, is probably a closely guarded secret. My concern was what happens when stopped at traffic lights with the brake pedal depressed? Is the full current running through the trailer brakes? Could the wiring overheat? Tekonsha's reply was,
"...with little or no deceleration the unit will only send 1/4th of the power setting to the brakes."
Sounds good to me.
__________________

__________________
Ordered 9 Nov 2011 - Delivered 3:30pm Friday 13 April 2012
Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 3L CRD, Black Forest Green Pearl, Quadra-lift, Off-road Adventure II, Front Recovery Hook, Mopar Tow Bar, Mopar Rock Rails, 150A Projecta Battery Isolator, Tekonsha P3 Brake Controller, Bridgestone D697 265/60R18 LT, Kimberley Kamper Special Edition
MudMap M7 off/on road sat nav, Chief front recovery hooks "chrome", Chief 3mm bash plate
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BobT For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Towing thread steveo Grand Cherokee - WK2 - 180 09-07-2014 08:11 PM
Towing questions. First time towing looking for some input. JTS97Z28 Grand Cherokee - WK2 - 5 08-25-2012 03:53 PM
*****WK2*****2011-??? Grand Cherokee pricing and info thread discussion THREAD!!!! White WK Swagga Grand Cherokee - WK2 - 136 12-13-2010 12:52 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2012 - JeepGarage.Org
The Jeep Grand Cherokee Owners Community