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  #13  
Old 03-31-2013, 01:53 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

If we play with an idea, there's too much additive... what ever the amout is, but that much it will cause something...
What will it cause?

Now, when manual states 2.5oz and (as I heard, there's some plate attached to axles/each) the plate tells 2oz front/4oz rear, there's about 7oz (just added a bit to rear), which is about 3x the amount manual requires.

Does anybody have exact/confirmed info of what will happen when there's this much additive? (Talking about (more of a ) rear)

Frango100, does Your manual look the same? Those texts/values I copied are from '02 manual (couldn't find '04...)
If they're still the same, I wonder why do they have different amounts in a manual (has been wrong years) compared to those plates. (Got to see it by myself)
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2013, 02:33 PM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

In my 04 manual its written like this:

FRONT AXLE ± 0.3 L (1 oz.)
186 FBI (Model 30) 1.18 L (2.5 pts.)*
* With Vari-Lok add 0.07 L (2.5 oz.) of Friction
Modifier.
REAR AXLE ± 0.3 L (1 oz.)
198 RBI (Model 35) 1.66 L (3.5 pts.)*
226 RBA (Model 44) 2.24 L (4.75 pts.)**
* With Trac-lok add 0.07 L (2.5 oz.) of Friction
Modifier.
** With Trac-lok or Vari-Lok, add 0.07 L (2.5 oz.) of
Friction Modifier.
*** Includes 0.9L (1.0 qts.) for coolant reservoir.
****Nominal refill capacities are shown. A variation
may be observed from vehicle to vehicle due to

manufacturing tolerance and refill procedure.

I found in an other forum this:

I was told by a former Dana drivetrain engineer that too much LSD additive effects the viscosity and decreases oxidative resistance of the oil, that is resistance to oxidation from heat. Too little, of course, causes chattering which in turn wears the unit out prematurely or breaks it outright. He suggested that the best procedure is to use as little as it takes to eliminate chatter and no more, but you have to experiment to find that point. Each oil has slightly different friction characteristics so each may need more or less additive.

That process involves extra effort, which is why not too many people do it. It's outlined in some manuals, though it's more common to see, "Add X-oz." The one time I did it the hard way, it took me the better part of an hour. Starting with a newly installed plate-clutch type LS. I filled the axle to about 90 percent and located a parking lot near my home. With no additive I went to the parking lot and did some tight figure 8's in both directions, with a little power on. Chattered like a big dog. I added about half a bottle of the Ford additive and did some more figure 8's. At first it chattered just as bad, but you have to work the stuff into the unit and mix it well with the oil. After a little while, the chattering lessened considerably. I added about a quarter of a bottle more and that eliminated the chattering. For then. Later, it started to chatter a little so I added the rest of the bottle and it chattered no more. The instructions with the unit said to use two bottles, but I don't recollect their capacity in ounces, so I used half that.


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  #15  
Old 04-01-2013, 09:26 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

In other words, nothing should happen, if oils are changed as scheduled.

Jeep manual... a bit weird they recommend 2.5oz for both ends, as volume difference is about 2x.

Then, more driving... an aspahlt with quite a much of a sand (used during winter). A good place to test how wheels will act.
What I realized
-4Lo, tight turn, there's so much rattling (noise) because of the sand (front&rear turning the same speed) I'm not sure if the original problem (chattering?) exists then. But - still turning, stop the car, switch to 4Hi and continue turning, middle clutch/loch won't get loosen, until I reverse a bit.

Anyway, after that experiment, I can really "feel" that feeling when middle clutch is engaged, when driving 4Hi.

When driving on a yard, I told, wheels can "slip" pretty easy. When turning to a left, rear/left wheel "intermittently" stops/brakes.

Two choices, either rear axle engages or middle clutch. Actually 3... if both do it...

So next question,
-If middle clutch is open when car is standing still, what might make it to engage with low speed/ with that speed difference. In a way, it "works too good/fast".
-And actually the same question to rear axle.

I've heard, middle clutch might "burn"/get stucked. Does it mean it's engaged all the time? Or is it just like this is - works, but too quicly?

About the oils,
I've heard Mobil 424 should equal to NV247 oil. Or is it actually "original" 247 oil? As Chrysler does not make oils, they buy it from somewhere anyway.
Could be a bit cheaper to buy Mobil than Mopar...
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:10 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

The progressive coupling in the T-case is in fact a clutch pack which uses pressure from an oil pump, which is driven by the speed difference between the front and rear propeller shafts. You have to see it like this; the pump housing is driven by one shaft and the pump output shaft by the other axle. Both axles the same speed = no pressure from the pump = no clutch engagement. When a speed difference exists between the two shafts, the pump will deliver pressure and the clutch will engage. Different tire sizes front/rear (or partly worn tires at one side and new on the other) will already cause the pump to work constantly and cause the clutch to wear rapidly.
When you use 4Lo, it mechanically connects front to rear and progressive coupler is not used anymore. Don´t know the exact buildup of the T-case to know what could be causing it to stay connected.
When the clutch pack is burned, it normally doesn´t engage anymore. It could be that for whatever reason the clutch is stuck in the engaged position.
The mopar fluid is indeed Mobil 424. I´m using it since the beginning.
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  #17  
Old 04-02-2013, 08:36 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

Thanks, for confirming it, as how I supposed it to work.

What might be the conclusion of this?
-T-Case "burned", stays engaged? It's not. It clearly let wheels to rotate for a while for different speed.
-T-Case doesn't engage at all? -> no sound? And testing on ice, front wheels starts to rotate. -> T-Case will engage.
-Rear?? "Kick" test will engage rear lock after a couple of spins. And during accelerating as well. And in the beginning of "test turn" to a left, wheels have clearly different speeds (vari-lok not engaged), but after a while inner wheel starts to brake. -> rear is still a possibility.

Sooouu....
No good reason why either one (or any) should engage when driving low speed and turning.
Some other peoples have got similar malfunction (can't be sure) and in those cases, clutch in T-Case has been an issue.
->front propeller shaft away, if there's no sound, I can be quite sure it's T-Case.

But, even faulty parts are there, why does it engage with that speed?
Got to change fluid first and see what happens.
Because, there's 120k km only on that car, I don't want to believe, Clutch in T-Case needs to be replaced.
Jeep can't be that bad, can it?
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:50 PM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

Today... some shopping (not related to a car...) but, had to do some turns in a parking garage.
Now I'm 98% sure, this sound comes from the rear.
Can't feel anything on a steering, but the other wheel starts to brake (rear, inner). And sound itself is "quite far".

Does anybody have any ideas of, why hydraulic pressure will/would increase that much, vari-lok would start to engage?

And, sorry, no tests without front propeller... no time, yet.
Tomorrow I'm gonna leave to Taiwan for a couple of weeks, so we'll continue then with the shaft.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:23 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

Just A thought...

From a manual, section 3, "Vari-lok"
"(10) The left wheel should spin freely at first and
then increase in resistance within 5 revolutions until
the wheels cannot be continuously rotated in opposite
directions."

I can't spin it so many turns?? Vari-lok engages, let's say, after about half of those turns. That might be the answer, but why it does so?
(Front feels appr. the same, but no way for 5 turns)
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:22 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

So it means the vari lok operates perfectly. It should engage WITHIN 5 revolutions, it doesn' t state that there should be a minimum amount of revolutions before it engages.
Still strange though that it still seems to engage when making tight turns, with the amount of additive you already have added. You are sure that the additive is the right one?
When you see my answer from the 31st, i had put a story from an other guy. There they state that you have to use as less of the additive as possible, because it will adversly affect the viscosity of the fluid( so the lubrication) and also the oxidation of the fluid at high temperatures. But you need to put in enough to get rid of the clutch chatter.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:29 AM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

As I wrote, I'm in Taiwan right now, so can't do too much for it... in this week.

But,additive, has been bought from a guy who makes only Jeep services. And has been doing them for years. I doubt, whether that was wrong? The rule of a thumb for the amount of additive, came from him, and he has read it from plates/signs, from inside the axles(??).
Don't know yet, I haven't seen those by myself. But that's why I was asking for an amount, manual will tell - a while ago, #15. Talking about that - as You can read from my answer, manual tells to put same amount of additive for both ends, although the amount of oil is different??

Manual - tells actually that a wheel should rotate first freely!! Mine doesn't. I feel that it starts to engage right away, I start to rotate it. And it's a couple of turns only - so in a way, there's no "spin freely" part at all. Which might depend on an oil as well. I suppose.

So the story You're pointing at, tells as well, that within a couple of years, it doesn't matter if there's some excess additive, because chemical reaction will happen after oils has to be changed again. (oxidation)
But viscosity might be an other story, and this is actually exactly how I feel it is. Somehow Vari-lok engages too fast/quicly and the reason can be wrong viscosity.

So, what I'm gonna do, after getting back to home...
-gotta order a couple additive bottles in advance
-change oils to both ends, and add additive actually a little bit less than what manual tells and add it if needed.

I feel that this started after oil change, so I hope it will end to an oil change...
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Old 04-15-2013, 02:15 PM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

My jeep has open diffs and they also don't spin that easily. But the thing is that when you spin one wheel, the other side should start spinning in the opposite direction (so the vari-lok is not engaged) but soon they should both spin in the same direction (so the vari-lok is engaged). If they both spin in the same direction from the start, then there is something wrong (maybe mechanically) inside the vari-lok.
Do you remember which viscosity fluid you did use?
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  #23  
Old 04-15-2013, 06:47 PM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

That is what happens.
Fluid was 75W-140, synthetic. If I recall right... But original Mopar oil anyway. Additive was in a Crown bottle.

If/when I change the fluids, and don't add additive... what should happen?
Will this additive smoothen the friction? In a way, it slips more before it's fully engaged?
Or vice versa?
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:14 PM
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Re: Still moaning a bit !!!!!

The additive allows a certain amount of slip inside the vari-lok, which is necessary when making turns and different wheel speeds will occur between inner and outer wheels. No additive means that the vari-lok will completely lock, and that results in a wheel which will skip, in fact what you where experiencing already.
With the limited slip additive there can always be a bit of slip in the vari-lok.
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