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  #25  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:45 AM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

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Originally Posted by ckeegan View Post
the Durango is currently the only 3 row SUV that can tow more than 5000 pounds for under $60,000 dollars, unless you want to go Tahoe or bigger. I don't. There is your market
Thing is...that's not a large market. If it were, Durango sales would be much larger than they are being the only vehicle that exists in the class you describe. That's exactly my point.

Apparently...most sub $60K 3 row buyers either

1) Prefer a larger vehichle if they need to tow 5000+ lbs

or

2) Don't care much about the towing

We know what's good about the durango...the question is what needs to change in order to increase its market share. Personally, I think I basically just needs a little more length and interior room to compete with the GM Lambda models in that area.

(On a side note...technically GM's Acadia and Traverse are rated to tow 5,200 lbs, but of course the Durango is much better towing vehicle in any case.)
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:51 PM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

Jeep would be a little bit sick in the head to put something that ugly on the market. IMO
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  #27  
Old 03-25-2013, 09:37 PM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
Thing is...that's not a large market. If it were, Durango sales would be much larger than they are being the only vehicle that exists in the class you describe. That's exactly my point.

Apparently...most sub $60K 3 row buyers either

1) Prefer a larger vehichle if they need to tow 5000+ lbs

or

2) Don't care much about the towing

We know what's good about the durango...the question is what needs to change in order to increase its market share. Personally, I think I basically just needs a little more length and interior room to compete with the GM Lambda models in that area.

(On a side note...technically GM's Acadia and Traverse are rated to tow 5,200 lbs, but of course the Durango is much better towing vehicle in any case.)
It needs better fuel economy. The Lambdas aren't the vehicle to beat in the segment - Explorer is. Explorer is very similarly sized to Durango, very similar in performance to Durango, yet does so with engines one size down. It's lighter, softer, and in general more conducive to being a family vehicle. And it's styling is less polarizing, while I think Durango looks good, I know several people who think it looks like a machismo machine for men who feel they are lacking in the manliness sector. That's a turn off for many women drivers.

Explorer is just conservative enough to not fall into any pitfalls like that. It's vaguely reminiscent of a Land Rover, and is a nice looking vehicle in general. Dodge missed the mark with Durango because they wanted to build the same Durango as ever, just better. Unfortunately, that market all but died since the 1st generation Durango neared its last days.

To be successful, Durango needs to be a bigger Journey, just like Explorer did.

IMO, that opens the way for a Chrysler Aspen that could be the road going, slightly sporty/edgy German feeling Durango we have now (but with upgraded materials, etc.), and a Jeep Grand Wagoneer to be the off road capable vehicle that once dominated its market.

Perhaps the smarter idea however is to let Durango continue on as-is, give Chrysler a proper Pacifica replacement (a larger and more luxurious Journey could do the trick here), and have the Grand Wagoneer pick up the slack as the top level machine.

That said, a CRD would help Durango a lot, and makes a LOT more sense than a CRD Grand Cherokee. Durango is larger and more family friendly, thus more oriented to a long road trip. Long road trips are PRECISELY where the CRD has an advantage.

Hyundai's market research showed that people buying 3 row crossovers often do so with trips that they take for 2 weeks or less each year in mind. That CRD fuel economy could make for a big advantage for Dodge to the middle class family that goes to visit family several hundred miles away once or twice a year, but they blew it on that count.

The other issue Durango has is that it didn't benefit from the attention to materials that GC did. You can't get all the fancy leather dash and such that you could on GC, you can't get the pano roof, and compared to the higher end 3 rows, it's way slow. So where GC is able to compete and win against vehicles above its class, Durango can't steal any of those Mercedes GL buyers because it doesn't have the fancy stuff from the GC.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2013, 06:24 AM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

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Originally Posted by FAUEE View Post
It needs better fuel economy. The Lambdas aren't the vehicle to beat in the segment - Explorer is.
Interesting the different perspectives we have. In my corner of the world (Northeast US), the explorer is definitely not the vehicle to beat. For 3 row crossovers...there are lambdas all over the place, followed by Honda Pilots. I see more Mercedes GLs on a given day than I do Explorers.

Having said that, I don't know what the national sales numbers are for any of them.

Quote:
...Explorer is just conservative enough to not fall into any pitfalls like that. It's vaguely reminiscent of a Land Rover, and is a nice looking vehicle in general.
Agreed...I find the looks of the Explorer OK, and I can see how it would be less polarizing than the Durango. (I prefer the Durango's looks myself...but then, I'm a guy.)

Having said that...after driving an Explorer...I ruled it out as one of my options. Just didn't like the driving dynamics nor did I like driver comfort / seating.

Quote:
To be successful, Durango needs to be a bigger Journey, just like Explorer did.
Do you mean just from a styling perspective? I can see that...but to be clear, I think the market demands a big crossover in the 3 row segment. In other words, interior room and utility approaching that of Minivans. (Like the lambdas).


Quote:
That said, a CRD would help Durango a lot, and makes a LOT more sense than a CRD Grand Cherokee. Durango is larger and more family friendly, thus more oriented to a long road trip. Long road trips are PRECISELY where the CRD has an advantage.
Agreed that the Durango is more "family" oriented, but not sure if the CRD would make sense.

Quote:
Hyundai's market research showed that people buying 3 row crossovers often do so with trips that they take for 2 weeks or less each year in mind. That CRD fuel economy could make for a big advantage for Dodge to the middle class family that goes to visit family several hundred miles away once or twice a year, but they blew it on that count.
(Raises hand). That's me and my family. I am going to use the crossover as both my daily driver, and as the family trip vehicle which is used in part to visit the in-laws once or twice a year (2000 mile round trip.)

But having said that...the V6's fuel economy is good enough, and since the majority of my driving will be my daily commute (no highway) and shuttling the kids around in the afternoon (again...around town driving), I don't think the 1 or 2 highway trips a year tips the scales for me toward the CRD.

Perhaps if my daily commute was also highway miles, it would be different. The lack of a CRD in the Durango for me is not an issue at all. If the Durango's target market is more of soccer moms (who do not have a daily "commute" with highway miles), the CRD doesn't make as much sense since the majority of trips will be around town.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:47 PM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

What I mean is that to be successful, the Durango needs to be less truck-like as it is now, and more crossover-like as Explorer became.

I think Durango's target market is more like the people who would take trips out to their favorite fishing spot the next state over, while pulling a boat. The soccer moms are more likely to drive something a bit more car-like.

It's interesting you see a lot of Lambdas. We have some Acadias, a decent amount of Enclaves, but Explorer is more common than both combined. Lots of Pilots and Highlanders too though.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAUEE View Post
What I mean is that to be successful, the Durango needs to be less truck-like as it is now, and more crossover-like as Explorer became.
Gotcha.

I think we mostly agree on this. To be clear though, my idea of "More crossover Like" means less off road worthiness and more interior room.

A jeep Grand Wagoner (assuming it is off road worthy) would be going in the "Less" crossover route, which still leaves room for a 3 row chrysler crossover product "For the masses".

That could be filled with a new Chrysler "Aspen" as you mentioned or a new Durango.

Just to be clear, I think "Every man's" 3 row crossover is basically a king an for those Le who don't want minivan styling.

Note that neither GM nor Ford has minivans anymore...so they have products that directly address the lack of minivan. GM has the lambdas to fit this need. Ford has the Flex to fit this need.

Chryco of course still has minivans, so I can see the reluctance with making a truly large 3 row crossover which might eat into minivan sales.


Quote:
It's interesting you see a lot of Lambdas. We have some Acadias, a decent amount of Enclaves, but Explorer is more common than both combined. Lots of Pilots and Highlanders too though.
Yeah, I'd love to see national sales numbers for these..
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  #31  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:37 PM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I think that you are missing the point completely.

The number one quality that made the original grand wagoneer a success was the luxury aspect, above a certain dollar figure, its an emotional buying and not just numbers.

The route to go is an 80K$ grand wagoneer with everything possible as standard. a hemi 6.4 and real off road capability.

Benz just made this trick with the GL, the 450 sells fine and they added a 550, same car more luxury also sells fine.

I would like to qualify my remarks by adding that I currently own a 2012 grand Cherokee, a 2008 GL 450 and a 1991 grand wagoneer :-)

I may be a bit of an affluent jeep nut, but there are plenty like me!
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:18 AM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

I am deeply offended!!

Seriously though, I agree ChryCo should have a 3 row crossover that speaks to the "luxury" audience. I'm not sure if it should come from Jeep or Chrysler brand though.

If money were no object for me, I'd be getting a Mercedez GL450. I don't have the disposable cash to spend $80K on the vehicle with the equipment I want, so it's going to have to be a used GL-450, vs. a "new" crossover from competitors (Acura, Infinity, Dodge, GM...)

Now, there "luxury" and there's luxury. I'm still not convinced that Jeep or Chrysler could get away with an $80K Wagoneer, though. There may be enough customers who would cross-shop between an $80K Wagonner, a GL-450 and say a high end escalade...but when you spend in that market, I believe you expect a certain level of sophistication and service from the service department. (You know, free loaner cars, tea and crumpets in the waiting area, etc, basically get your ass kissed while they take your money, as opposed to most service departments where they take your money without kissing your ass.)

I have not owned a Jeep or Chrysler since forever, so I don't know what their service dept is like, but I would guess it's just not the same as Audi, Mercedez, etc. based on a dealer visit I made last year when test driving the Durango. More like your typical GM, Toyota, Honda, etc. service dept.

If the Jeep service experience can't match that of the true "luxury" brands, then I don't see an $80K Wagoneer in the cards. $60K tops IMO. part of the "emotional buying experience" that goes with the luxury brands is the service aspect.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:19 PM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

A high end Grand Wagoneer is the vehicle for me! My wife drives a 2012 Range Rover Supercharged and i have the 2013 JGC SRT8, but i also have a 2012 Yukon XL Denali for the people hauling trips. I think I can get my wife out of the RR and into the Grand Wagoneer(she loved her '85) then we could get rid of the Denali. The 6.4 would be ideal in the new Wagoneer. Plenty of HP and TQ for me and plenty of luxury for her!

I actually HATE the RR dealership experience! All $$ and no substance. I feel like I have to beg for their attention. I deal with GM and Jeep/Chrysler/Dodge dealerships and find them just great for my service and repairs. Much more my type of place.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:38 AM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

The jeep service dep may not be up to par, but the vehicles are.

We own a 2012 GC Overland, and a 2007 GL which I'm about to replace with a new one.
The similarity between them is great. The GC has a nicer exterior to my taste.
The only place the GL wins is the 2 more seats and the better head unit.

To get similar feature you get in the GC you need premium package II on off road which makes it a custom build as none of the dealers have it in stock and more options like heated cooled front seats, heated rear seats etc. also no factory remote start on any Benz.

Making the GL450 go from a base msrp of 63 to 85. And the GL550 to over 95.

If jeep had a 7 seater modern design (no fake wood) Waggy, I would have bought it and not the GL.

And if they throw in the new bigger all aluminum hemi it could rival the GL550. And at 85 be even cheaper.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:33 PM
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Re: 2013 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

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Originally Posted by MAXGroup View Post
The jeep service dep may not be up to par, but the vehicles are....
If jeep had a 7 seater modern design (no fake wood) Waggy, I would have bought it and not the GL.
I do not disagree that the vehicles are up to par. (In fact, with the lack of a '14 Waggy available, the '14 Durango is on the top of a very short list of options for me for my 3 row cross-over I'll be buying this fall.)

Quote:
And if they throw in the new bigger all aluminum hemi it could rival the GL550. And at 85 be even cheaper.
This is probably an area where we disagree.

I simply don't think that the current market will support a Waggy that is priced similarly to, or just undercutting the GL. Sure, there would be some discernible buyers willing to purchase an $80-$85K Waggy, but I don't think the vast majority would consider a Jeep over a Mercedes if they were in the same ballpark with respect to price.

The time may come some day, but I don't think it's here yet. IMO, for a Waggy to succeed in today's market, it should be priced no higher than $65K (vs. a similarly equipped GL at around $85K). Just my opinion.

This pricing is higher than some other 3 row luxury cross-overs that would be cross-shopped ( Infiniti JX35/QX60 and Acura MDX.) The waggy would have true off-road capability that the Acura and Infiniti do not.
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