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  #1297  
Old 08-11-2013, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willx View Post

See I don't want huge power. I do tow like many of the guys/gals from OZ. They have some nice light improvements that give you a little more torque and a little more horsepower and better fuel economy. I would be perfectly happy with 260 Horse and 450 foot pounds. It makes all the difference in the world!

I had the eco tune from green diesel engineering on my 07 wk crd. It gave, I think twenty horse and maybe the same torque but I picked a good 2 mpg. The tune also eliminated a delay in throttle response from idle. That delay was nasty when trying to make left turns crossing traffic. I spoke with keith at GDE and he said have tunes for the wk2. I plan to tune my Jeep.
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  #1298  
Old 08-11-2013, 11:24 AM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Hey!

Lots of discussion on Piezo vs Solenoid injectors, and I've been pouring over research trying to figure out if what I bought last Friday was really as high tech as we thought.

I'm no Engineer, but I've been driving diesel engines for work for over 18 years, so I have a little understanding of their design and use.

In any case, here's my basic understanding. The piezo vs. solenoid injector thing has to do with the lubricity of the fuel. The fuel in a diesel system is also part of the lubrication. Turns out Suflur is a good lubricant, as well as a good pollutant. When we require UltraLow Sulfur in our US diesel supply, we also remove some of the lubricating qualities of the fuel. The solenoid injectors are apparently more robust in these conditions, and are the better tool for the job in the US.

Looks like the two Bosch systems are otherwise similar in their performance, with 2000 bar, and 8 injection events per cycle. I'm still really happy with the Jeep I ordered. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Limited MAX STEEL, new zealand frost, Lux 2, ORA2, Block Heater, Advanced Tech,8.4AN if you are curious.
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  #1299  
Old 08-11-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wk2.1573 View Post
Hey!

Lots of discussion on Piezo vs Solenoid injectors, and I've been pouring over research trying to figure out if what I bought last Friday was really as high tech as we thought.

I'm no Engineer, but I've been driving diesel engines for work for over 18 years, so I have a little understanding of their design and use.

In any case, here's my basic understanding. The piezo vs. solenoid injector thing has to do with the lubricity of the fuel. The fuel in a diesel system is also part of the lubrication. Turns out Suflur is a good lubricant, as well as a good pollutant. When we require UltraLow Sulfur in our US diesel supply, we also remove some of the lubricating qualities of the fuel. The solenoid injectors are apparently more robust in these conditions, and are the better tool for the job in the US.

Looks like the two Bosch systems are otherwise similar in their performance, with 2000 bar, and 8 injection events per cycle. I'm still really happy with the Jeep I ordered. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Limited MAX STEEL, new zealand frost, Lux 2, ORA2, Block Heater, Advanced Tech,8.4AN of you are curious.
Awesome info!

Thank you! I knew there was some logic to the decision and it sounds like it is related to fuel contents.
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  #1300  
Old 08-11-2013, 11:32 AM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by wk2.1573 View Post
Hey!

Lots of discussion on Piezo vs Solenoid injectors, and I've been pouring over research trying to figure out if what I bought last Friday was really as high tech as we thought.

I'm no Engineer, but I've been driving diesel engines for work for over 18 years, so I have a little understanding of their design and use.

In any case, here's my basic understanding. The piezo vs. solenoid injector thing has to do with the lubricity of the fuel. The fuel in a diesel system is also part of the lubrication. Turns out Suflur is a good lubricant, as well as a good pollutant. When we require UltraLow Sulfur in our US diesel supply, we also remove some of the lubricating qualities of the fuel. The solenoid injectors are apparently more robust in these conditions, and are the better tool for the job in the US.

Looks like the two Bosch systems are otherwise similar in their performance, with 2000 bar, and 8 injection events per cycle. I'm still really happy with the Jeep I ordered. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Limited MAX STEEL, new zealand frost, Lux 2, ORA2, Block Heater, Advanced Tech,8.4AN if you are curious.
In Europe the sulfur content is lower 10ppm compared to our 15ppm. Still, the newest 3 liter Audis use the 3rd generation CRI3-20 piezo injectors.

Quote:
In Germany, average sulphur content was estimated in 2006 to be 3-5 ppm
This was one year before we went to ULSD 15ppm in the United States.
Also, many other countries have lower sulfur Content than our ULSD 15 ppm.

The USA is among the last to implement Ultra low sulfur diesel.

Maybe the Audis use piezo because they have the lowest sulfur content. We currently have more sulfur in our fuel than any other 1st world nation.
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  #1301  
Old 08-11-2013, 11:47 AM
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Adding warranty at the dealer at time of purchase you can spread cost over life of loan.
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  #1302  
Old 08-11-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1973Commando View Post

In Europe the sulfur content is lower 10ppm compared to our 15ppm. Still, the newest 3 liter Audis use the 3rd generation CRI3-20 piezo injectors.

This was one year before we went to ULSD 15ppm in the United States.
Also, many other countries have lower sulfur Content than our ULSD 15 ppm.

The USA is among the last to implement Ultra low sulfur diesel.

Maybe the Audis use piezo because they have the lowest sulfur content. We currently have more sulfur in our fuel than any other 1st world nation.
Maybe not the sulfur but definitely due to Diesel quality is appears.... I have found a few threads on this but piezo seems to have a higher failure rate here....

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/forum/f...ailures-17657/

Not saying I agree but just a perspective.
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  #1303  
Old 08-11-2013, 12:21 PM
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Willx,


I agree. Like I said, my understanding is limited, but it seemed to be about fuel lubricity/quality.

The real message is that we didn't simply inherit old technology from another market, but rather have the best technology, specifically chosen for this market. It is exactly what it is supposed to be.

I wonder if they are building mine yet?
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  #1304  
Old 08-11-2013, 02:33 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by wk2.1573 View Post
Hey!

Lots of discussion on Piezo vs Solenoid injectors, and I've been pouring over research trying to figure out if what I bought last Friday was really as high tech as we thought.

I'm no Engineer, but I've been driving diesel engines for work for over 18 years, so I have a little understanding of their design and use.

In any case, here's my basic understanding. The piezo vs. solenoid injector thing has to do with the lubricity of the fuel. The fuel in a diesel system is also part of the lubrication. Turns out Suflur is a good lubricant, as well as a good pollutant. When we require UltraLow Sulfur in our US diesel supply, we also remove some of the lubricating qualities of the fuel. The solenoid injectors are apparently more robust in these conditions, and are the better tool for the job in the US.

Looks like the two Bosch systems are otherwise similar in their performance, with 2000 bar, and 8 injection events per cycle. I'm still really happy with the Jeep I ordered. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Limited MAX STEEL, new zealand frost, Lux 2, ORA2, Block Heater, Advanced Tech,8.4AN if you are curious.
This is mostly true. Piezo injectors are inherently more robust against low lubricity fuels like those found in the US. When working with solenoid injectors, to protect against "very low" lubricity fuels certain coatings are added internally to make them more robust.

It's true that piezo injectors are more precise, but it also comes down to cost as well where the piezo injectors and correspondingly an ECU capable to drive them are more expensive than the solenoid counterparts.

Take VW for example. Same "base engine" (block/heads/etc) between Jetta and Passat. The Jetta runs with Piezo injectors and also uses a lean NOx trap which in order to regenerate requires a precisely controlled combustion cycle wherein the engine runs rich. The Passat uses SCR which is much more expensive but can live with an engine that's less precisely controlled and to offset some costs they use solenoid injectors (CRS2.18, born from the same family as those on the previous gen WK2).

Does this mean the WK Nafta is less precise? Not at all, considering that the CRS2.20 injectors are the most technically advanced solenoid ones that Bosch has made in some time. You must also keep in mind that Fiat has a strong influence on what HW is used, and you'll be pressed to find a Fiat using Piezo.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:50 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

I wouldn't say that I'm a Grand Cherokee diesel holdout, but it is on my list of possible replacements for my much-loved but aging Ram 1500 5.9L as a rough terrain / bad roads / road trip vehicle. I'm also one of the people who was disappointed to see the required options with the diesel (and disappointed with the required combinations of options in general).

Does having orders open now mean that diesels are likely to start showing up on dealer lots for a test drive in Oct/Nov?

Will the US Grand Cherokee take the big high-flow nozzles you find along the highways? Some stations don't have car-size diesel pumps.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by mceb View Post
Adding warranty at the dealer at time of purchase you can spread cost over life of loan.
As long as the dealer price matches competitors. My dealer refuses to come within $1,000 for the same Chrysler warranty.
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  #1307  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:09 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmopar64 View Post
This is mostly true. Piezo injectors are inherently more robust against low lubricity fuels like those found in the US. When working with solenoid injectors, to protect against "very low" lubricity fuels certain coatings are added internally to make them more robust.

It's true that piezo injectors are more precise, but it also comes down to cost as well where the piezo injectors and correspondingly an ECU capable to drive them are more expensive than the solenoid counterparts.

Take VW for example. Same "base engine" (block/heads/etc) between Jetta and Passat. The Jetta runs with Piezo injectors and also uses a lean NOx trap which in order to regenerate requires a precisely controlled combustion cycle wherein the engine runs rich. The Passat uses SCR which is much more expensive but can live with an engine that's less precisely controlled and to offset some costs they use solenoid injectors (CRS2.18, born from the same family as those on the previous gen WK2).

Does this mean the WK Nafta is less precise? Not at all, considering that the CRS2.20 injectors are the most technically advanced solenoid ones that Bosch has made in some time. You must also keep in mind that Fiat has a strong influence on what HW is used, and you'll be pressed to find a Fiat using Piezo.
Both the CRS2 solenoid injectors and the CRS3 piezo injectors use the same "EDC17" control unit. The only difference between the CRS2-20 system and the CRS3-20 system are the piezo injectors. I assumed the CRI3-20 injector would be more advanced than the CRI2-20 injector since 3 is a higher number than 2.

Certainly the Solenoid injectors have a longer history, thus a more predictable reliability.

EDIT: Addition: You said "Piezo injectors are inherently more robust" and "piezo injectors are more precise". So it sounds like this comes down to cost and Fiat's history of using Solenoid injectors.
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  #1308  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:12 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willx View Post
Maybe not the sulfur but definitely due to Diesel quality is appears.... I have found a few threads on this but piezo seems to have a higher failure rate here....

Common rail fuel system failures - VW TDI forum and Audi TDI forum - myturbodiesel.com

Not saying I agree but just a perspective.
From Bosch:

Quote:
Varying fuel qualities are a challenge for every injection system. With the robust piezo actuator the injectors of the CRS3-18/20 are perfectly suited. Compared with a solenoid, the power of the piezo actuator is about ten times as high. This means it is less susceptible to small particle contamination in the fuel.
According to Bosch, their new piezo injectors are more suited to fuels of inferior quality than their old solenoid injectors.
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