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  #1309  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:17 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

The VWAG failures are fuel pumps grenadeing, sending metal particles throughout the fuel system, which in turn kills the injectors.
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  #1310  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:27 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Diesel??? I thought these things ran on skittles
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  #1311  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:39 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon View Post
Diesel??? I thought these things ran on skittles
HEHE. I am going to have a poster of that on my wall some day.
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  #1312  
Old 08-11-2013, 04:48 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1973Commando View Post
From Bosch:

According to Bosch, their new piezo injectors are more suited to fuels of inferior quality than their old solenoid injectors.
Personally, I am good with the "prior technolgy" but just latest generation. I am pleased that this JGC is a refresh of a proven platform, it limits the genetic issues. I won't likely buy a 2016-2017 in the first year because it will be a new platform.

If I believed everything I read from a manufacturer, I would believe in rainbow/skittle farting unicorns because every manufacturer says stuff about how amazing their stuff is.

Anyway it is just my personal opinion... but I am now looking very closely at the VW threads... There appears to be a lot of dicsussion on the subject.
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  #1313  
Old 08-11-2013, 05:33 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

After doing some more digging, I am pleased we are going Solenoid....

Seems like Piezo has been a problem A LOT the last few years.

Piezo
Mercedes fixes diesel injector problems

Piezo Recall to replace
Injector recall - yes this is really happening at last!!!!

Treads on MB retrofiting entire cars back to solenoid after multiple Piezo injector replacements (another recall)
Blue Efficiency injector recall? - Page 79 - MBClub UK - Bringing together Mercedes Enthusiasts

Passat Injector explaination of failures
https://sites.google.com/site/1810ma...iezo-injectors

Anyway, not scientific in the slightest but I searched the same phrases for Peizo as I did solenoid. There are a lot of recalls and such for Piezo injectors (in the last 3-4 years) and none for any Solenoid injector systems that I have found.

More to the point is finding major manufacturers rebuilding entire Common rail systems with new wiring and injectors to convert them to solenoid from piezo. I can see why bosch needed to come out with a new generation piezo injector. It appears very much that the last generation of Piezo injectors have had a very bad reputation.

I am not an engine guy by any means but I can see a lot of bad talk about Piezo... So again, sounds like maybe Jeep when the "safe" way and not just "cheap"
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:51 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willx View Post
After doing some more digging, I am pleased we are going Solenoid....

Seems like Piezo has been a problem A LOT the last few years.

Piezo
Mercedes fixes diesel injector problems

Piezo Recall to replace
Injector recall - yes this is really happening at last!!!!

Treads on MB retrofiting entire cars back to solenoid after multiple Piezo injector replacements (another recall)
Blue Efficiency injector recall? - Page 79 - MBClub UK - Bringing together Mercedes Enthusiasts

Passat Injector explaination of failures
https://sites.google.com/site/1810ma...iezo-injectors

Anyway, not scientific in the slightest but I searched the same phrases for Peizo as I did solenoid. There are a lot of recalls and such for Piezo injectors (in the last 3-4 years) and none for any Solenoid injector systems that I have found.

More to the point is finding major manufacturers rebuilding entire Common rail systems with new wiring and injectors to convert them to solenoid from piezo. I can see why bosch needed to come out with a new generation piezo injector. It appears very much that the last generation of Piezo injectors have had a very bad reputation.

I am not an engine guy by any means but I can see a lot of bad talk about Piezo... So again, sounds like maybe Jeep when the "safe" way and not just "cheap"
I'm all for higher reliability. Hopefully I will get explanations for the erroneous published reports saying it had piezo injectors and confirmation from Bosch the CRS2-20 system is being used and not the CRS3-20 system.

Here are the two you tube videos on both systems again, the solenoid is first the piezo second:

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Old 08-11-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1973Commando View Post

I'm all for higher reliability. Hopefully I will get explanations for the erroneous published reports saying it had piezo injectors and confirmation from Bosch the CRS2-20 system is being used and not the CRS3-20 system.

Here are the two you tube videos on both systems again, the solenoid is first the piezo second:

Going to watch those here in a minute... now that the UConnect stuff is calming down a little I may dive right into diesel tech.

I find this all VERY interesting because I see the improvement of diesel technology very important in the fuel economy race.

Thx!
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:38 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

OK,

As mentioned I am not an engine guy but I do spend a lot of time working through technical specifications and RFQs for various projects. I can tell you that those two videos side by side offer some very interesting information. You practically need a dictionary now to pull this type of marketing material apart but here is the main points I can see the legal department have combed over.

Yes, Piezo injectors appear to be suited to a more performance based vehicle offering some advantages especially as systems go beyond 2000 Bar.

But here is the most interesting stuff and where the dictionary comes in

Piezo is good for "Inferior Quality Fuel" (defined at not the best or not superior)

Solenoid is good for "Sub Optimal" which believe it or not gives a wider range. Also specifically in the Solenoid video they mentioned "Solution for all fuel qualities" and "global market compatible". None of which is mentioned for Piezo.

Also looking into some internal Mercedes notes on the failure issues with Piezo injectors, it does not appear to specifically be the fault of the injector. Almost all the cases of issues get drilled down to contamination. I am seeing similar reasons for the VW recall that it was an issue with "dirty oil".

So it appears on the surface that if you are building the highest performance diesel, you may want piezo injectors, however you then require the highest quality of fuel.

As a side note, this may also be why the Jeep is noted as being able to run Biodiesel and other mixes. I imagine this is not possible with piezo??? Maybe research for another day.

BTW, Thank you 1973Commando, I would not have actually easily seen the differences in how they talk about those two technologies had you not posted both of the videos. I did need to watch them multiple times to see how they bend the english language!!
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  #1317  
Old 08-11-2013, 06:56 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willx View Post
I did need to watch them multiple times to see how they bend the english language!!
I wonder if the german version was any clearer.
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  #1318  
Old 08-11-2013, 11:09 PM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Some of the confusion on whether it had piezo or solenoid injectors may have come from here:
VM Motori S.p.A.
The engine mentioned there shows a lower torque rating than the 2014 JGC. But has a 2000 bar, piezo, Common rain injection listed. Which vehicle is this Fiat engine going in?

The editor from DIESEL POWER Magazine is checking his sources and will update me. He is now seeing conflicting information. He got the information about the 2014 JGC CRD USA model having piezo injectors from a press kit.
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  #1319  
Old 08-12-2013, 01:23 AM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> US crude is called sour crude as opposed to the sweet crude from the Middle East. Sour crude has a higher sulphur content therefore more costly to produce ULSD fuel. My guess is that for this reason, US ULSD standard is 15ppm whereas the European and Australian standard is 10ppm of sulphur. This is probably the reason why the US CRD will have solenoid injectors rather piezo. In Oz we have had Multijet II in our CRDs since 2011 and I've yet to hear of an issue. The issue with VW was to do with excessive wear in the fuel pump due to contaminated or otherwise poor quality fuel. It had nothing to do with the injectors. FWIW see Working Flux 8 injections - MultiJet II
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:50 AM
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Re: 2014 diesel production

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1973Commando View Post
Some of the confusion on whether it had piezo or solenoid injectors may have come from here:
VM Motori S.p.A.
The engine mentioned there shows a lower torque rating than the 2014 JGC. But has a 2000 bar, piezo, Common rain injection listed. Which vehicle is this Fiat engine going in?

The editor from DIESEL POWER Magazine is checking his sources and will update me. He is now seeing conflicting information. He got the information about the 2014 JGC CRD USA model having piezo injectors from a press kit.
That is very interesting, I go search out that exact same engine on the VM site and it says nothing about Piezo at all. In fact the one you link seems to be lumped in with the 3 and 4 Cyl which is really wierd. I ran around the site a little and there does not appear to be a way to get to that page via normal link (just view the area it says you are in just "Automotive -> Engines -> 3-4 cylinders in line"). It must be a ghost page not linked to anything. Likely put up there in error considering I don't think VM decides which injectors you are getting.

3000 cc link: VM Motori S.p.A.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobT View Post
US crude is called sour crude as opposed to the sweet crude from the Middle East. Sour crude has a higher sulphur content therefore more costly to produce ULSD fuel. My guess is that for this reason, US ULSD standard is 15ppm whereas the European and Australian standard is 10ppm of sulphur. This is probably the reason why the US CRD will have solenoid injectors rather piezo. In Oz we have had Multijet II in our CRDs since 2011 and I've yet to hear of an issue. The issue with VW was to do with excessive wear in the fuel pump due to contaminated or otherwise poor quality fuel. It had nothing to do with the injectors. FWIW see Working Flux 8 injections - MultiJet II
The functional videos shown there are Solenoid injectors and it appears that MultiJet (I & II) is a Solenoid injection technology? Again not an engine guy but those are Pins moving in those injectors not a Crystal stack.

Edit: It appears that MultiJet has always been a Solenoid technology and that there has been a lot of discussion about Fait Powertrain being able to achieve the same 8 Injection events per cycle that Piezo has.

Under the Skin: Automotive technology news

Edit: The VW Campaign I am referring to did not involve the replacement of any fuel pump. Piezo injectors were specifically changed out to an updated design to address problems with the injectors themselves. I do see some other areas where they have stated: pump injector, not injector pump, which again is a play on words but I feel they are trying to cover up problems with the injector technology. I am not a conspiracy theorist by any means but the continual failures of piezo injector systems across many manufactures seems to be masked by a lot of funny wording about the problems. I mean maybe the new CRS3 series Piezo injector units are fantastic from Bosch but even they are not willing to say "World Market Compatible" in their video about Piezo and they are super careful about the wording about the quality of the fuel. Seems fishy to me, who would want to purchase some diesel that is a little off and have to replace half of their injectors?

I mean I can see VW updating a part, that makes perfect sense to me, parts get updated all the time. The thing that got me was reading the complete retrofits that Mercedes did to convert a Piezo injector system to Solenoid! I mean that required a different type of controller and electrical regulator, so I cannot see Mercedes doing that unless there was no way to make the Piezo work properly? Of course I read into it further and they had replaced piles of the piezos before commiting to the complete retrofit.

Edit: So the "Campaign" which I was corrected by an associate of mine who reminded me recalls are for safety (and I tell people this all the time) was the beginning of this year.

Edit: In March/April of 2013 Mercedes was hauling back huge numbers of various Diesels in order to change the ECU and the injectors from a Piezo system to a Solenoid. I have to feel that if Mercedes could have saved the Piezo setup they would have because that is an expensive fix!!!!
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