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  #61  
Old 06-24-2014, 11:36 PM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

This is the only report of any such issue on these boards. To claim one shouldn't buy a diesel because of it is borderline laughable. If that were the case, don't buy any car...any make...ever.

Come on guys, a little perspective maybe? Too early for complete dismissal of the diesel because of an isolated incident. Am I saying there will never be more? No. I'm saying right now this is one incident from THOUSANDS of diesels sold and many times that fill-ups w/o incident. There's a story on here of a Hemi engine failing, does that mean they should be avoided too?
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:17 AM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

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Originally Posted by Zhe Wiz View Post
To claim one shouldn't buy a diesel because of it is borderline laughable. If that were the case, don't buy any car...any make...ever.
So true. I have to admit I did laugh a little myself
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  #63  
Old 06-25-2014, 06:51 AM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

Agreed, too early to tell if the Bosch fuel system issues have been addressed or not. There has been one other report of a JGC diesel HPFP failure on this site, here:
Major EcoDiesel Injector Pump Issue

I've been watching to see if Bosch has fixed the CP4.x HPFP issue or not, because it's been occuring with VW Jettas for 5 years now, plenty of time for them to make engineering changes. In fact, it's common enough on the Jetta that one owner invented a simple add-on device for the HPFP that restricts the damage to just the HPFP in the event of a failure. His idea was to provide some relief for Jetta owners out of warranty, reducing the repair cost to just a new or rebuilt HPFP.

On the VW Passat, they went to a slightly lower pressure Bosch HPFP and there have been only a few reported failures. IIRC, the Passat uses a 26K psi pump vs. a 29K psi pump on the Jetta. As far as the Jetta, the problem seems to be still occurring.

Bosch makes several levels of fuel system interior protective coatings available, DLC's, so I'm hoping that Chrysler Jeep went for the higher levels of protection. In a $50K vehicle, they have far more margin to do that than in a $22K VW Jetta.

The problem really is a Bosch issue, not necessarily a Chrysler/Jeep issue, but how they handle the failures is what I'm interested in seeing. Chrysler, Ford, GM and Daimler are well aware of the Bosch CP4.x failure issue, because they were contacted by the NHTSA several years ago in regard to the VW engineering investigation and had to supply data on the failure rates of their Bosch HPFP's and fuel systems. The actual figures from them were not disclosed, unlike VW's. This information was all in the NHTSA documents concerning the VW TDI investigation.

Daimler/MB were still at that time, using the more robust CP3.2/3 HPFP's and Ford/GM were using the newer Bosch CP4.x pumps. Reading through some of the responses from them reminded me of the 3 monkeys - see no evil, hear no evil, do no evil. They knew nothing, weren't seeing any real problems at all. This in spite of some of their respective owners screaming foul on the pickup truck forums about this exact issue.

Ford owners were particularly angry, because in spite of the systems Water in Fuel warning light never going off, some of them had exactly that issue and were denied warranty for contaminated fuel. In the pickup truck world, owners are far more likely to refuel from onsite work storage fuel tanks, where water contanimation is highly probable, because most of those storage tanks do not have water management systems installed.

Ford's response was particularly amusing - they said that they had no engineering insight about defects into the Bosch CP4.x pumps because they were a black box they bought from a vendor and they had no idea about what might be wrong. I don't mean to single out Ford, it's just that their black box answer struck me as funny, they just buy the parts and install them, end of story. Somehow, I believe that all major diesel vehicle manufacturers have fuel systems destructive testing and they know from those tests exactly what level of lucricity and fuel contamination it takes to destroy one of their HPFP pumps. But realizing that they're dealing with a government agency, its understandable.


As far as failed HPFP's, I think it's more likely to encounter fuel at the retail pump that fails the lubricity standard of 525 HFRR wear scar than to get contaminated fuel. Part of the documentation Chrysler provided the NHTSA with was an Infineum fuel study, circa 2012 IIRC, where quite a few retail samples failed the lubricity test by a considerable margin. Overall, the failed sampled percentage rate of the total sample was quite low, but when it failed, it really failed. The fuel tested was selected at major cities, located close to major pipelines, so as to eliminate isolated stations that might keep fuel in their tanks longer than they should. The reason for failure was apparent, the fuel wasn't properly treated for lubricity at the terminal, where that additive is mixed with the raw untreated ULSD.

The fuel lubricity issue is something unfamiliar to most new diesel vehicle owners. It's basically unheard of in the gasoline engine world because their fuel pumps don't come close to the very high pressure involved in diesels, not even in the newer direct injection gas engines.

Most of the bad fuel in the Infineum study was in California and the midwest, the best lubricity fuel was sampled on the East coast of the U.S. Some of the bad fuel tested in the 700 HFRR range, plenty high enough to damage a HPFP in short order.

The only reason it's a concern now is Bosch's latest HPFP is proving to be far more vulnerable to fuel quality than their previous generation systems.

So there are more issues to be aware of with a newer diesel vehicle, but it's not a reason to avoid them altogether. If you take reasonable precautions where you fuel up, the chances are very good that you won't ever experience a problem with the fuel system.



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Originally Posted by Zhe Wiz View Post
This is the only report of any such issue on these boards. To claim one shouldn't buy a diesel because of it is borderline laughable. If that were the case, don't buy any car...any make...ever.

Come on guys, a little perspective maybe? Too early for complete dismissal of the diesel because of an isolated incident. Am I saying there will never be more? No. I'm saying right now this is one incident from THOUSANDS of diesels sold and many times that fill-ups w/o incident. There's a story on here of a Hemi engine failing, does that mean they should be avoided too?
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  #64  
Old 06-25-2014, 09:28 AM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

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Originally Posted by Ranger1 View Post
...So there are more issues to be aware of with a newer diesel vehicle, but it's not a reason to avoid them altogether. If you take reasonable precautions where you fuel up, the chances are very good that you won't ever experience a problem with the fuel system.
None of which sounds "laughable" to me. Thanks for the good info.

And I'm back to wanting the diesel (but I only want it for the better tranny).

But ... what then are the "reasonable precautions" to take, both locally where you can hope to have some familiarity with the station, and on a cross-country trip where you can't?
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:01 AM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

Locally, use stations with high volume, clean fuel. Avoid small, low volume, small stations with high priced fuel as it's probably been sitting in their tanks for a while. Once you find a local station with good fuel, stick with it. Even then, it's not a sure thing, so I try to fill up whenever I reach half tank, just to be able to dilute a potential bad tank of fuel by half. I also have used a fuel additve since the very first tank, but that's a personal preference.

Visual checks for debris when first filling, a sniff test if anything looks bad and a good quality fuel additive doesn't hurt. On long trips or vacation, I stop and buy some along the way when stopping for the night, and again when we arrive at the destination. With the range of these diesel Jeeps, it's doable. Changing the fuel filter regularly is critical.


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Originally Posted by BubbaATL View Post
None of which sounds "laughable" to me. Thanks for the good info.

And I'm back to wanting the diesel (but I only want it for the better tranny).

But ... what then are the "reasonable precautions" to take, both locally where you can hope to have some familiarity with the station, and on a cross-country trip where you can't?
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:47 PM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

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Originally Posted by Ranger1 View Post
Locally, use stations with high volume, clean fuel. Avoid small, low volume, small stations with high priced fuel as it's probably been sitting in their tanks for a while.
Personally I avoid stations that have prices that are out of the norm for the area in either direction, high or low. I try to find the cheapest fuel around, that is still within the general price range of the other stations around.
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:01 PM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

Are you really only averaging 21.2 mpg in your CRD?
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:37 PM
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2014 ecodiesel in shop

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Originally Posted by 1Zach1 View Post
Personally I avoid stations that have prices that are out of the norm for the area in either direction, high or low. I try to find the cheapest fuel around, that is still within the general price range of the other stations around.

I think this is good advice. Last week, I found a bit-out-of-the-way Shell station with 20 cents cheaper fuel. I work from home office, so I don't have to drive every day, and, in the next week, I had only day of solid metro highway driving. The truck virtually stayed in the garage for most of the week. At 1/2 tank level, I experienced my first visible regen notice. It cleared with continued driving, but, since it happened after the first local fuel purchase away from my normal supply, it makes me wonder if the fuel was different. My fuel mileage was off by nearly two points as well.

While both locations were branded Shell, I don't think the cheaper fuel location was a Shell-owned station as is the station near my home. This could all be coincidence, but I had 13,000 miles without a regen notice.

Use common sense about location, keep receipts between fuels stops, especially when traveling, change the fuel filter according to manufacturer recommendations, and you should get long and dependable service from your Diesel Grand Cherokee.



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Old 06-25-2014, 09:14 PM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

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Originally Posted by Ranger1 View Post
Locally, use stations with high volume, clean fuel. Avoid small, low volume, small stations with high priced fuel as it's probably been sitting in their tanks for a while. Once you find a local station with good fuel, stick with it. Even then, it's not a sure thing, so I try to fill up whenever I reach half tank, just to be able to dilute a potential bad tank of fuel by half. I also have used a fuel additve since the very first tank, but that's a personal preference.

Visual checks for debris when first filling, a sniff test if anything looks bad and a good quality fuel additive doesn't hurt. On long trips or vacation, I stop and buy some along the way when stopping for the night, and again when we arrive at the destination. With the range of these diesel Jeeps, it's doable. Changing the fuel filter regularly is critical.
I was going to much the same thing. However, I would avoid any additives. The DPF is sensitive enough without adding more combustion products. That's why we have low ash oil and DEF made on distilled water. Here is Oz we have two versions of diesel. What is often called truck diesel and premium diesel. Truck diesel is straight out of the refinery. Premium diesel is the same basic diesel but some brands add a bit of cetain enhanser, lubricity enhanser and even a deoderiser but the amounts are low for the reasons above. Some brands also have an additional filter at the bouser for the premium diesel. It costs a few cents more but I think it is worth seeking out. I would recommend contacting your oil companies to determine the composition of their diesels. Anyway, despite having some pretty dodgy diesel in the bush we have had no reports of fuel contamination in Australia, yet, and we have had the VM Motori 3L CRD since 2011.
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:27 AM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

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Originally Posted by BubbaATL View Post
Are you really only averaging 21.2 mpg in your CRD?
Yes, but my daily commute never gets above 40MPH and is short, so it keeps my MPGs down on average. I get 30+ when highway driving, then turn around and kill that in a week or so of driving to and from work.
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:37 AM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

That's good advice, it's best to see if any additive is safe for your emissions equipment. In general, anything that reduces soot formation in the cylinder because of better combustion will help reduce the number of regens.

Fortunately, there are some fuel additives that are safe to use on catalysts and DPF's used on the 14 GC diesel. One of I know of for certain is PS, but there are no doubt many others. I'm not endorsing PS, I just happen to use it for the long term injector cleaning benefits.


It will be harder to tell if an additive reduces soot formation when you have a DPF, except by carefully monitoring regens, but for those of us without them, we can tell almost instantly, LOL. All we have to do is drive behind our CRD Jeeps and watch the exhaust.

In the early days of ownership, I ran numerous tests where I asked my wife to drive the CRD while I monitored it from behind. I took me a while, but I found which fuels in my area and which amount of fuel additive worked best for my engine.

Fortunately for me, I found the right combo before my wife's patience was exhausted.


If you want to use one, check their FAQ's out to see if it's safe for DPF's and catalysts. If it doesn't say it's safe for DPF's and catalysts, I wouldn't use it.

FAQ - Power Service Diesel Fuel Additives

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobT View Post
I was going to much the same thing. However, I would avoid any additives. The DPF is sensitive enough without adding more combustion products. That's why we have low ash oil and DEF made on distilled water. Here is Oz we have two versions of diesel. What is often called truck diesel and premium diesel. Truck diesel is straight out of the refinery. Premium diesel is the same basic diesel but some brands add a bit of cetain enhanser, lubricity enhanser and even a deoderiser but the amounts are low for the reasons above. Some brands also have an additional filter at the bouser for the premium diesel. It costs a few cents more but I think it is worth seeking out. I would recommend contacting your oil companies to determine the composition of their diesels. Anyway, despite having some pretty dodgy diesel in the bush we have had no reports of fuel contamination in Australia, yet, and we have had the VM Motori 3L CRD since 2011.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:47 PM
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Re: 2014 ecodiesel in shop

There is a guy on the LOST Liberty CRD forums that chimes in occasionally. He is/was and engineering student that works with VM on their Diesels. He stated on that forum that the CP4.x in the North American JGC has a "tougher" internal coating for this very reason. Sad really, there are very few CP3 failures on the original version in the Duramax and Cummins P/Us. They "improved" them to the point they don't work anymore.
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