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  #13  
Old 09-04-2015, 12:03 AM
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Re: Emission problems and warranties....

"Since you don't have annual emissions testing" my a$$. I'm sure FCA didn't offer you the option of getting an ecodiesel without SCR/DEF/DPF/EGR... I hate it when people put off like they are doing you a great favor when it's really just the minimum of their job requirement.

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  #14  
Old 09-04-2015, 12:10 PM
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Re: Emission problems and warranties....

When I questioned this at the dealership service writer's desk, I was told this was not covered by the EPA warranty because it was not the catalytic converter, the DEF system was only covered by the Max Care service plan. I was told I owed $49.95 for the deductable over the phone when I was informed it was ready for pickup a week later. When I got to the dealership to pick up the vehicle, the amount owed was now $100 for the deductable.

Lets just say everybody in the room knew exactly what I thought about that before I left, the service writer went off hiding, and I will never darken their doors again at that dealership. I have owned this JGC for 88 weeks now, less than two years, and it has spent almost 6 weeks in the shop for emissions related problems. Not the experience I was hoping for.

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Old 09-04-2015, 12:25 PM
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Re: Emission problems and warranties....

I've often thought this. FCA can make a nice product and take share from German metal but its weak dealership network stuck in the 1990s will not create repeat customers.
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  #16  
Old 09-05-2015, 12:58 AM
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Re: Emission problems and warranties....

After you guys tactfully pointed out my dealer was blowing smoke up my skirt I did a little online research. I've attached a summary of post from the RAM forum that sheds some light on what's covered and what's not under the federal emissions warranty. It also gives us a peek behind the curtain at FCA. It's no wonder the dealers don't know what the heck they are doing. It starts at the top and flows downhill.

A Ram EcoDiesel owner last April wanted clarification on the emissions warranty. After not finding any definitive answer he emailed the EPA.

He asked:

"Good Day Mr. Ball,

Im reaching out to you for clarification on what components of new diesel emission components are covered under the 8yr/80,000 mile federal emissions warranty. The PDF I downloaded (420f0908.pdf) states Catalytic converters, ECU and OBD systems are covered. Newer diesel vehicle emission systems have many more components to the emissions system and I have not been able to get a clear answer from the manufacturer on what specific components are covered.

I am specifically concerned about the following components of the emissions system:
Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF)
Diesel Exhaust Fluid system (DEF)

These components are critical to the emissions compliance, I have not been able to see them specifically listed as covered or exempt by either the manufacturer or EPA.

Thank you for your time."

The response was:

"Hello Mr. Jones,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the federally required emissions warranty. The Clean Air Act requires manufacturers of light duty vehicles to warranty all emissions related components for 2 years or 24,000 miles and the specified major emission control components for 8 years or 80,000 miles. The specified major emission control components only include the catalytic converters, the electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU), and the onboard emissions diagnostic (OBD) device or computer. Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) are considered by EPA to be catalytic converters and are cover by the 8 year or 80,000 mile emissions warranty. Other components in the diesel exhaust fluid system are only cover by the 2 year or 24,000 mile emissions warranty.

Many pick-up trucks sold with diesel engines are actually heady duty vehicles. Any vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs or greater is a heavy duty vehicle. These vehicles are not subject to the 8 year or 80,000 mile emissions warranty. The heavy duty regulations require a 5 year or 50,000 mile warranty for this class of vehicle (light heavy duty).

I hope this information is helpful.

Joel Ball
Light-Duty Vehicle Group
Compliance Division
United States Environmental Protection Agency
(734) 214-4238
ball.joel@epa.gov"

He then asked the same question to FCA:

"Dear Brian:

It is great to read of your interest in Ram!

I apologize for the delayed response. I have taken the liberty of
escalating your inquiry to our Ram Program Management team who have
stated that the 3.0L EcoDiesel Engine is covered under the 2 Years or
24,000 Miles Federal Emission Warranty and is not included within the 8
Year/80,000 mile warranty as this warranty is for gas engines only.

For more information on the 2015 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel Warranty, please
access the link below:

My Ram Trucks: Ram Owners Service Manuals - Ram Cars, Minivans, SUVs

If you have any further product questions about the current Ram lineup,
you are always welcome to reply back to this email and I will respond
back to you as promptly as I can. If you prefer, you can also reach us
directly with your questions at the Ram Product Information Center by
calling 1-866-726-4636. When you call, we can connect you directly to
your local dealership, providing your call is during the dealer's hours
of operation.

Thank you for your interest in Ram, Brian. We wish you the best!

Sincerely,

Nicole
Ram Product Information Center"

He then forwarded the EPAs response to the FCA folks:

I just got a response from RAM after pushing a little harder and letting them know what the EPA said. Here's the response

"Dear Brian:

Thank you for your reply!

Please be advised, we are unable to comment in regards to what you have been informed by third party information. Unless the information has been officially released by FCA US LLC, I am unable to comment on this matter.

As previously stated, according to our Ram Program Management, the 2015 Ram 1500 equipped with the 3.0L EcoDiesel engine is covered under the 2 Years or 24,000 Miles Federal Emission Warranty and is not included within the 8 Year/80,000 mile warranty.

If you have any further product questions about the current Ram lineup, you are always welcome to reply back to this email and I will respond back to you as promptly as I can. If you prefer, you can also reach us directly with your questions at the Ram Product Information Center by calling 1-866-726-4636. When you call, we can connect you directly to your local dealership, providing your call is during the dealer's hours of operation.

I am sorry I could not provide you with a more favorable answer, Brian.
We wish you the best!

Sincerely,

Nicole
Ram Product Information Center "

He then sent FCAs response to the EPA Contact and here is the EPAs response:

"Hello Mr. Jones,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have contacted Chrysler to discuss the matter and they have acknowledged their mistake and are correcting the warranty information in their manuals. They have assured me that the dealer computer systems have correctly identified that the 8year /80,000 mile warranty applies to these components on the diesel engines in light duty vehicles was well as gasoline and are confident that the dealerships will honor the warranty. If you have taken your vehicle to the dealer and have had the warranty denied based on the erroneous information in the manual, please send me the VIN number of your vehicle and I will contact Chrysler to get it straightened out.

Best Regards,

Joel Ball
Light-Duty Vehicle Group
Compliance Division
United States Environmental Protection Agency"

Another Ram EcoDiesel owners inquiry to the EPA elicited a slightly more detailed response:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the federal emissions warranty. The Clean Air Act requires manufactures of light duty vehicles to warranty the emissions control system performance for 2 years or 24,000 miles and 8 years or 80,000 miles for specified major emissions control components which are: 1) the catalytic converter, 2) the electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU), and 3) the onboard emissions diagnostic (OBD) device or computer. Additionally, manufactures are required to warranty any emission control or emission related component that fails to function or functions improperly because of a defect in materials or workmanship for 2 years or 24,000 miles (8 years or 80,000 miles for specified major emissions control components) under the emissions defect warranty.

The following web page provides more information regarding the federal emissions warranty requirements: www.epa.gov/obd/pubs/420f09048.pdf

Vehicle technology is constantly changing; therefore there may be emissions control components or emissions related components which do not appear on this list. The 2 years/24,000 mile federal emissions warranty still applies to these components. A more complete list can be found in your owner's manual/warranty booklet. The specified major emissions control components are specified in the Clean Air Act as: 1) the catalytic converter, 2) the electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU), and 3) the onboard emissions diagnostic (OBD) device or computer. The diesel SCR catalytic converter, Diesel oxidation converter, and the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) are considered catalytic converters covered under the 8 year/80,000 mile warranty, however, the other components in the SCR system (e.g. exhaust sensors, DEF tank, valves, hoses, etc) are covered under the 2 year/24,000 mile warranties mentioned above.

I hope this information is helpful,

Joel Ball
Light-Duty Vehicle Group
Compliance Division
United States Environmental Protection Agency
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  #17  
Old 09-05-2015, 10:15 AM
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Thanks for posting the corroboration, talltale.

Now that it is well-established that the DPF and SCR cat are covered by the 8/80, the concern becomes about covering the rest of the crap (the DEF injectors made from gossamer and tissue paper, etc). MaxCare specifically excludes "exhaust system components", meaning there could be some arguments with FCA in store for the future.
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:34 PM
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Re: Emission problems and warranties....

Sounds like we, the consumer, clearly need to elevate this concern to the EPA that the DEF system is not covered and is just as important to emissions compliance as the SCR.

In the meantime, I'll be warranting my own components (that won't fail) with the use of my GDE tune.
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
Sounds like we, the consumer, clearly need to elevate this concern to the EPA that the DEF system is not covered and is just as important to emissions compliance as the SCR.
You might be able to convince the EPA director to expand the law. The federal law segregates emissions components into two types: an 8yr/80k warranty for a very small list of named types of components (primarily ECU & catalytic converters) and also requires a 2yr/24k warranty for "everything else" emissions related. A DEF injector isn't something that can easily be construed to be a catalytic converter, unlike the DPF and the SCR catalyst. The EPA can add stuff to the named component list via administrative procedures, but I'm guessing that requires a "public comment" period for regulatory rulemaking... unlikely to help if your Jeep is broken *today*.

Of course, this is the *minimum* warranty required by law. Manufacturers are free to offer further coverage (e.g. our 3yr/36k bumper to bumper exceeds the 2/24 federally mandated minimum for emissions components). Complaining to FCA (or shaming them on social media) might get better results.
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