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Old 04-06-2015, 10:42 AM
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Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Often I'm seeing people refer to TBN as in how strong an oil is, keep in mind TBN the only function it has is neutralizing combustion acid created by sulfur, not lubrication.

Per Chevron:
With 3000 ppm sulfur diesel fuel, oil TBN in the range of 10 to 14 was common, with lower priced oils at approximately 8 TBN. Current engine oils for use with ULSD are around 8 to 9+. Clearly the need for high TBN does not exist with today’s ULSD fuels.

.pdf link:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Qanxwt18ypyj6w

2nd point
Biodiesel's affect on engine oil, this would explain why in the owners manual it specifies 8,000 mile oil change for B5-B20 vs. 10,000 with B0 #2.

Per Lubrizol:
Fuel dilution with biodiesel stimulates oxidative degradation (thickens oil viscosity). Thus another reason why C3 oil is specified with the appropriate oil change interval.

.pdf link
https://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAd...eselImpact.pdf


3rd point:
Aftertreatment Regen with bio-diesel affect on engine oil, why A3/B4 oil is diesel rated but not suitable for post injection after-treatment.


.pdf link
https://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAd...erformance.pdf

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Old 04-06-2015, 04:26 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

I'm not sure I would call those second two "white-papers." I see no cited sources, and a lot of branding, leading me to believe that someone is trying to sell me something... It seems highly susceptible that they claim B20 use will knock engine oil out of grade that badly, when Chrysler allows use of B20 for even a shorter amount of time. With changes like that you'd think they would just recommend it's usage at all.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:18 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Just got my UOA back from Blackstone.
With 15k on my engine, I did an oil change at 8500 miles after the first oil change, which I did at 6500.

Using OE Pennzoil Ultra Euro L ONLY with no top ups between changes, at 8500 miles the TBN was 3.9 and the condition of the oil was very good!
The metals were high but this was expected from a new engine on a second change with (fairly) long intervals. Overall, the report was extremely positive about the motor and oil and now I feel very confident in the 10k changes recommended by FCA.

I've only run a tankful of B20 once....from a Pilot Truck stop and it was all they had available. I try to run "pure" diesel whenever possible but B5 is pretty much standard.

We also use our Jeep for towing a 5000lb Travel Trailer for about 25 percent of our current mileage.

All in all, very happy with our JGC Overland Diesel.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:01 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
Just got my UOA back from Blackstone.
With 15k on my engine, I did an oil change at 8500 miles after the first oil change, which I did at 6500.
Did you post a copy of the UOA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
Using OE Pennzoil Ultra Euro L ONLY with no top ups between changes, at 8500 miles the TBN was 3.9 and the condition of the oil was very good!
Like I said in the original post, TBN with ULSD isn't a huge factor, the more I read, i'm seeing B20 does affect the TBN in theory, to contradict myself. What is most important is fuel dilution. Fuel % has a cascade affect on potentially TBN, ZDDP, Viscosity affecting wear etc. Basically the biodiesel molecules attract ZDDP like a magnet limiting its effectiveness in the oil.

If all you want is TBN, SAE 50 ship oil has a TBN of 70 . Yes 70 mg-koh/g. They run heavy fuel oil, contaminated JP8, Bunker oil, whatever junk that will burn, very high sulfur content and thus the need for high TBN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
I've only run a tankful of B20 once....from a Pilot Truck stop and it was all they had available. I try to run "pure" diesel whenever possible but B5 is pretty much standard.
Every diesel pump i've seen says this fuel is B5-B20 ; i'm sure its a refining standard.

I have a few more papers i'll post up this week.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:28 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by C175 View Post
Every diesel pump i've seen says this fuel is B5-B20 ; i'm sure its a refining standard.
Sounds like you live in an area with a very strong Ag Industry influence. Down in the heartland of Illinois, you practically can't find a place without an E85 Nozzle at every pump, or Diesel only offered in B20. Up closer to chicago, the B5 is plentiful.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:47 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

La Grange, IL ; all the diesel pumps in Chicago area I've seen say B5-B20.


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Old 04-09-2015, 09:50 AM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

No, I didn't post a copy. Only really relevant to my motor isn't it.

I understand that it is only required for retail pumps to be labelled if the diesel has more than 5 percent bio in it. No label on the pump means it could be either petrodiesel or 5 percent petro/bio mix. However, I've seen some stations putting a label on the pump (a SMALL label!) stating that it may have upto 5 percent bio. I've always seen the B20 stickers at major truck stops.

I understand TBN isn't the "be all and end all" number but, together with the other parts of the UOA, it helps with the decision to, perhaps, run the oil to the full 10k intervals. However, I will let the oil indicator in the EVIC dictate when I do the next change and will send off the sample to Blackstone.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:07 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
No, I didn't post a copy. Only really relevant to my motor isn't it.
I like to read UOA's, I've only read a couple thousand of them in my day

What was the number for Iron, Lead, Copper? What was the Viscosity at 100*C ?

Thank you,
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:21 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Very relevant article,
Biodiesel Magazine - The Latest News and Data About Biodiesel Production


What sets our engine apart from the typical Diesel pick up truck, they use a fuel injector in the exhaust. Where as our engines do not have an additional injector and use the engine injectors to pulse an additional duration of fuel volume on the exhaust stroke, during the exhaust stroke, there's a vacuum on the cylinder from scavenging, imagine opening a door on a room in your house, the pressure differential creates a slight vacuum, this will basically pull this fuel from the cylinder when being post injected on the exhaust stroke in order to create a DPF regeneration.

With that said, creates more opportunity for fuel dilution by using post injection.

Further more:

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/fuel_biodiesel_comp.php

"This process is amplified in engines that utilize post-injection of fuel into the cylinder during the expansion stroke to provide fuel for regenerating exhaust aftertreatment devices. This post-injected fuel not only has more cylinder liner surface area onto which it can impinge, but because cylinder pressures and densities are lower than during injection earlier in the cycle, liquid droplets may travel farther. This further increases the likelihood of liquid fuel reaching the liner."

That would probably explain the higher high iron numbers.... Iron = Cylinder Liner

So yes, when the service manager says using something other than Euro-L can damage your engine, he's kind of right. But I'm sure doesn't have the back ground information as seen above.

Ultimately what it comes down to, oil wise, which one has the best oil sample results.
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:21 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Iron was 63....high but this was the second change at 8500miles.
Copper was 5
Lead 0
SUS viscosity was 64.3
CSt@100 was 11.42
Flashpoint of 440
The last 3 were pretty darn good.
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:36 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

63 ppm iron is average for these engines over 8500 miles, I become concerned when it's over 100 ppm iron. Viscosity looks good.


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Old 04-12-2015, 07:00 PM
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Re: Engine Oil TBN, Bio Diesel, white papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by C175 View Post
La Grange, IL ; all the diesel pumps in Chicago area I've seen say B5-B20.


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Come visit the Schaumburg area, or head up over the border by Wisconsin. Plenty of B05 available.
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