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  #37  
Old 06-14-2015, 04:05 PM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

RRT's are good, at least FCA have product support other than other manufactures that ignore common problems.


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  #38  
Old 06-14-2015, 07:51 PM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

So, to address one of my concerns: what impact will a "tuned" ECM have on my warranty and service contract? I am thinking that FCA would likely make noises that both are now void - but don't know. I LOVE my SFU, and the benefits of the tune (mileage, power, not getting stranded, power, and so on ... plus more power ��) sound REALLY attractive, but I am a little hesitant to do something that will make me an orphan.
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  #39  
Old 06-15-2015, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by C175 View Post
RRT's are good
Heh, well, maybe less good if the RRT nukes your GDE tune and then it costs you $100 to revert the RRT away and restore your GDE tune. No doubt that would cause some consternation next time you're at the dealer: "according to our records we've already applied this PCM flash version, but the PCM is reporting an earlier revision?!"

I suppose GDE could apply their patches to the new revision when you send your PCM in again, post-RRT, for another $100 reflash. Seems like that approach would get complicated quickly, given that the dealers seem likely to have records of which PCM firmware version is on any given vehicle; so if GDE always ships their tune on top of the "latest & greatest" PCM flash version, then it would be apparent to the dealer that some miracle had happened and a new GDE tune customer's PCM had been upgraded to the latest version without using a dealership. However, if GDE simply uses a "tune-patch the in-place PCM firmware revision" rather than fast-forwarding to the latest FCA PCM firmware version, then that gets to be a lot of repeated $100 reflashes for the successive RRTs.

Don't get me wrong: I'm sure GDE would love nothing more than to *not* have to waste hours of their time bench-flashing a bunch of PCMs, handling core exchanges, dealing with shipping hassles, antsy owners, etc. Hell, my guess is that charging *only* $100 for a reflash probably means doing a reflash is a net loss for them in terms of their time/efforts.

Ultimately, it's just a tough situation for everyone involved if there's no customer flash tool available.

Finally, remember, the 2014 PCM RRTs may actually be nothing more than TSB-grade; however, the approach they use to firmware versioning doesn't allow a TSB to supersede an RRT. If you open the document for the latest PCM RRT for a 2014 you'll see the list of changes in there, and it's a comprehensive list of everything included in every firmware version released since the 2014's started shipping. *That* "rollup" approach is why all future 2014 PCM revisions will be RRTs, even if the latest tweak is something trivial that only affects five vehicles or something.

This isn't like Windows Update, where they apply patches to fix small aspects of the software. Instead, imagine if Windows just had a single version and in order to get *any* updates you had to take *all* updates/patches that were released, and then Windows Update performed the update by erasing your OS installation and starting over from a blank computer.
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  #40  
Old 06-15-2015, 03:31 AM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

Remember there is always the option of keeping two ECMs - one flashed, one stock. It's a pricey option, but the flash tool isn't free either. If you have the cash it solves a lot of potential issues.
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  #41  
Old 06-15-2015, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Zhe Wiz View Post
Remember there is always the option of keeping two ECMs - one flashed, one stock. It's a pricey option, but the flash tool isn't free either. If you have the cash it solves a lot of potential issues.
I like that concept. However, isn't the odo stored in the PCM?

"You say you've been experiencing a persistent rattle in the sunroof? Ah, and I see you've driven... 15 miles?... in the 8 months since you last brought the Jeep in for service."

GDE's core for the PCM is $650. Even presuming they'd sell you one outright for that price, that's 6 reflashes worth before you would come out ahead. It's probably just easier to disable the OBD port until you *really need* a flash to some system or another, and then bite the bullet and pay GDE the $100 for a reflash. I know I would have paid $100 to cure my Jeep when it was jerking like it was rear-ended every time it shifted 2-1 and needed a TCM flash applied (it got a "bonus" PCM RRT flash automatically applied at the same time).

FWIW, I don't believe RRTs are free once the warranty expires, so that might put an end to rampant automatic nuking of people's GDE tunes.
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  #42  
Old 06-15-2015, 07:50 AM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

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Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
I like that concept. However, isn't the odo stored in the PCM?
Is that true? I doubt it, but someone who knows a lot more than I will have to answer that question. It would be way too easy to cheat on mileage at trade-in time if that were the case. The ECM is relatively inexpensive and VERY easy to swap.

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GDE's core for the PCM is $650. Even presuming they'd sell you one outright for that price
They will...

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Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
that's 6 reflashes worth before you would come out ahead.
Well that assumes you have time to deal with the ECM shuffle and there's no cost involved to do so. Take it out, send it in, wait a day or two, install and good again. Vs swap ECMs, go to dealer, swap back when done.

Yes, as I said, it's pricey, but it's an option worth considering. For some that extra $650 may be worth it just to have a guaranteed backup so no downtime and no chance of detection. I'm just pointing it out as an option to consider while waiting for the flash tool, or in case the flash tool issues are never worked out.
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  #43  
Old 06-15-2015, 08:00 AM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

I was considering keeping my core when the GDE ecu arrives but didn't know if that was really the true price or if that would cause havoc for other ecodiesel owners waiting for a tune as well.
My wife was a little concerned that it voids the warranty. I tried explaining to her that if the motor explodes, I'll get a stock ecu to put back in place before I take it to the dealer. Not so sure how much she liked that but I realize that I am my own engine warranty once flashed. Probably the entire powertrain when you think about it.
I'm ok with that, there aren't lots of engine or transmission issues on these vehicles. Lots of emissions issues, which this flash should take care of anyway.
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  #44  
Old 06-15-2015, 08:03 AM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

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Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
I was considering keeping my core when the GDE ecu arrives but didn't know if that was really the true price or if that would cause havoc for other ecodiesel owners waiting for a tune as well.
You just need to warn them IN ADVANCE so they have time to backfill and get another one ready to go. But they are willing to do it. Contact Keith and he may still be OK with it if he has enough extras.
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  #45  
Old 06-15-2015, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Zhe Wiz View Post
Is that true? I doubt it, but someone who knows a lot more than I will have to answer that question. It would be way too easy to cheat on mileage at trade-in time if that were the case. The ECM is relatively inexpensive and VERY easy to swap.
Seems that on most vehicles the canonical value is in the BCM, but I've read that at least some late model Jeeps will flash the odo if there is a mismatch in the odo value that's stored in the BCM vs the one in the PCM. My guess is that the odo value is stored in multiple places, kind of like how your VIN is etched in multiple sites on the vehicle.

Quote:
Well that assumes you have time to deal with the ECM shuffle and there's no cost involved to do so.
They are willing to send you a core ECM while you wait, and as long as you aren't carrying a balance on your credit card that's an interest free loan. Either approach still involves PCM swaps... which is therefore a "PCM shuffle" regardless. I'll also point out that most of the PCM RRTs have included fixes that really are worthwhile. Perhaps most of the issues have shaken out by now, but I know I definitely needed the oil life bug fix, the SCR dose fix (addressed by the GDE tune), and so on. I'll probably want the fix for the next insidious bug, too.

My point is that I'd generally want the GDE tune on top of "latest and greatest" PCM firmware revision. Having the dealer upgrade a dummy PCM and then me running an older version of the firmware w/ GDE seems somewhat self-defeating, especially if the dummy PCM approach takes 6+ reflashes to break even.

I'd just use their core exchange and run with the GDE-supplied dummy PCM while mine gets reflashed on top of all the latest FCA-released PCM fixes.

Quote:
no chance of detection.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Maybe if you got all crazy with JTAG and loading data cloned from the PCM you used day to day you could fake it all out, but my guess is it's still detectable due to incongruity of data logs, if not something as overtly obvious as a flashing odometer in EVIC.
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  #46  
Old 06-15-2015, 08:55 AM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
Seems that on most vehicles the canonical value is in the BCM, but I've read that at least some late model Jeeps will flash the odo if there is a mismatch in the odo value that's stored in the BCM vs the one in the PCM. My guess is that the odo value is stored in multiple places, kind of like how your VIN is etched in multiple sites on the vehicle.
Maybe, but you're speculating. It would be good to get a definitive answer to this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
They are willing to send you a core ECM while you wait, and as long as you aren't carrying a balance on your credit card that's an interest free loan. Either approach still involves PCM swaps... which is therefore a "PCM shuffle"
I'm not talking about monetary cost, I'm talking about TIME cost. My time, your time, our time is all worth something. Having to box up and send the ECM is a PITA. I work from home, getting somewhere to send it out is also a PITA. That time is worth something. It's not free. Again, I'm not saying it's worth it for you or that it isn't. Not even trying to argue that. I'm simply trying to point out another option and letting each person decide if it's worth it.

Your points are all valid, no doubt. That's why this discussion is worthwhile. Everyone needs to weigh the pros and cons and decide if to do it at all, and if the answer is "I want to" then knowing which options are available so an educated choice can be made is a good thing.

You don't like it, don't do it. Pick another option!

1. Don't do anything at all.
2. Wait for the flash tool
3. Send your ECM and have it flashed, return the core
4. Keep your ECM and buy a flashed ECM

Those are the options, the last one wasn't getting any attention. I simply wanted to make sure everyone was aware that it is indeed an option and has many advantages.
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  #47  
Old 06-15-2015, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Zhe Wiz View Post
It would be good to get a definitive answer to this question.
Someone who did a GDE tune w/ core exchange can let us know if the odo value flashed in the dash while they had the dummy installed. If you're asking whether it will ever be proven that the PCM has no odo value in there, then that will be a difficult negative for someone to prove, especially given how simple it is for the PCM to calculate/obtain.

Someone with the service manual disc can probably tell us if the PCM replacement shop instructions include an odo sync or any other "hook the new PCM up to a programmer" step. That would be fairly conclusive.

Quote:
I'm talking about TIME cost.
I understand, and I'm discounting the marginal time cost for sending it in for a reflash in a scenario where I already have taken the vehicle to the dealer, waited for them to apply flashes (or dealt with shuttling to/from the place), and have to play the "swap the dummy PCM" wrenching game either way... all in order to be able to continue to run a version of the PCM firmware with known bugs that have been fixed in the current revision. (FWIW, if time/convenience is worth a lot to you then you can always just have USPS/UPS pick your shipment up from your home using a printed label)

But, ultimately, I agree: it's an individual decision.
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  #48  
Old 06-15-2015, 10:08 AM
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Re: green diesel engineering tune

The "master" for the odometer is the instrument cluster on the WK. The PCM will store the value, but if you transfer the PCM to another vehicle then it will update it's internal value with that one being broadcast on the CAN bus of the new vehicle.

It would only affect the oil life calculation (the portion based on distance) depending on the relationship to the value it was last reset at.
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