During a long trip, I began getting CEL codes P20EE "SCR NOx Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold" and then today P2BA9 "NOx Exceedence - Insufficient Reagent Quality"
I filled up with DEF at Pilot Truck Stop from a pay pump about 2 months and 4k miles ago. No codes before then. I had 50% DEF today when I got the "Incorrect DEF - See dealer" message and it reoccurs on startup.
I immediately went to Walmart and bought a siphon pump and fresh 2.5 gal BlueDEF with a 3/2014 lot code date. I figured I siphon out as much as I can and replace with fresh fluid. Well, the DEF tank is apparently located far from the filler with a complex filler neck route...so I added the 2.5 gal of fresh DEF to the old.
Does anyone know how often the onboard diagnostic tests execute? I've read the "pending codes" require a certain number of drive cycles to clear. I have 5 miles and 3 restarts on it since adding DEF and I still get the message. I feel a limp mode situation coming soon if I don't get it to sense good fluid.
Also, has anyone accessed the DEF tank? Is there a drain?
FYI - I added another gallon of fresh DEF after the "Engine won't start in 200 miles" message. I drove 25 miles and restarted several times. The CEL light didn't come on again after I cleared it yesterday but an active P2BA9 code was down on my scanner. I restarted in the driveway after returning home and all codes and warnings are gone.
So it looks like adding enough fresh DEF may fix things in some cases. Thank God I was at a half tank so I could add.
New to the Forum. Waiting on delivery of a 2015 GC Overland Ecodiesel.
I took this post and created a spreadsheet in Excel that allows you to plug in the DEF code. The DEF manufacture code is automatically deciphered and the values show in cells much like the table above.
I run an Android phone. I downloaded Google Sheets and uploaded the spreadsheet to Dropbox. I then opened it with Google Sheets. It works fine.
I could see adding another formula to the sheet to calculate how many days old the DEF is based on the code.
I wanted to have this on my phone so I can plug in codes and let the phone tell me how old the DEF is.
Is this useful to anyone, or am I just trying to find things to do waiting on 2015 diesel production to start? I can share this somewhere but don't know how things like this are done on the Forum.
This is simple enough to put into an app for an Android or Apple product. I've never tried to do so but could see where it could be useful for folks who are math-challenged.
My advice after this is to NEVER fill more than 50% from a DEF pump. You can't tell if its stale or not so leave room to top off with concerned fresh store bought DEF in the event that you get an "Incorrect DEF - See Dealer" message.
My advice after this is to NEVER fill more than more than 50% from a DEF pump. You can't tell if its stale or not so leave room to top off with fresh store bought and confirmed DEF.
Thanks for sharing this. I really hope your DEF problems are cured. This reinforces my theory of always running off the bottom half of the DEF tank. My fear has been heat damaging the DEF. Thus, I keep the level low so I can add fresh DEF before trips. Realize that a quarter tank of DEF should last over 2,000 miles, so there is no real concern of running out before I have a chance to add some.
Funny you should mention heat. My first CEL codes started with "Insufficient NOx treatment efficiency" while I was on vacation in Florida...and it was HOT that week.
I'm thinking that owners need to plan on how they handle DEF refills mainly dependent upon the climate they live in.
In summer and in places where it is normally warm (don't fill up the tank as it will expire before it gets to empty). Instead be mindful of where you park (try to find shade so the parking lot oven doesn't bake the Jeep. Remember it can get up to 140 degrees inside on a hot sunny day (or 120 degrees asphalt temp where the Jeep will be sitting and getting convection). Instead wait til you get down to 1/4 tank then refill up with only a 2.5 gallon jug (no more). Keep extras as supply in your house or best basement in the coldest place (as it degrades much faster in warmer temps). I am letting mine get low then will only add 2.5 gallons at a time to a max of 1/2 tank at all times.
In the winter or cooler climates you can fill it all the way up but I will likely continue the strategy of only putting in the 2.5 gallons to fill it up to 1/2 all the time.
That is until we can delete the DEF system and get rid of this problem altogether. I wonder if it will pass emissions without it...
Agree 100%. My situation proved that adding fresh DEF can "freshen up" a bad tank...but only if you aren't full already. 50% full will be my new fill limit.
I actually don't mind the DPF as much as the DEF injection and CAT. I will delete this crap as soon as there is a viable method. There are no emissions test in my locale. Besides, I bet I can get nearly 40 mpg at 65 mph with a turbo back 3 inch exhaust and good tune.
I tried on two occasions to siphon the DEF tank. I used 3 different tube sizes, all rigid plastic. Unfortunately, it was impossible to get a hose far enough down the fill neck to reach the DEF level. Does anyone know where the tank is located? It needs a drain valve installed on it.
It certainly seems like sound advice to be very cautious filling from a garage pump, since you can't be sure of the quality of the DEF. As ExcursionDiesel recommends, I would only add a bit as needed rather than filling up at such locations. That said, I am less worried about good DEF going bad in my vehicle during the summer.
DEF is 32% urea in distilled water, and prolonged exposure to high temperatures can reduce the urea concentration. DEF doesn't go "bad" as it is exposed to heat, the urea concentration just falls below spec. Vehicles are calibrated to use more DEF it if the urea concentration falls below 32%, so the only deleterious consequence of having DEF in the vehicle exposed to very high summer temperatures should be that the product will be used up more quickly than usual.
Under extreme heat conditions it's possible for the urea concentration to fall too far for the vehicle to cope with by calibration adjustment, but that's unlikely for most of us. The shelf life estimates for product in inventory are based on the average daily temperature not a given day's maximum temperature. Even in Phoenix the extended average daily temperature is rarely above 95deg, and for most locations the average is significantly lower.
Theoretically, we could compensate for effects of the summer heat by adding concentrated urea to the tank to bring the DEF back to spec. ExcursionDiesel's
solution of adding fresh DEF to a low tank of degraded DEF effectively does that.
I think that using an average daily temp is a good start point but the owner should also keep in mind where you park especially in hot weather such as in a parking lot (like black asphalt) that is baked all day to 100 degrees plus+. I race cars so we check track temps during races and it is often 10-15 degrees hotter than the air temp (even up to 140 degrees we've seen on a really hot and humid day as the heat cannot escape - and the heat then stays long after the sun goes down irradiating it and holding a warmer temp as well). In fact we cooked an egg one time in the pits just to see if it worked (no we didn't eat it).
Took mine to the dealer after getting the incorrect DEF warning. They did a regenation on the catalytic system but had to order a tool from Jeep to test the DEF. Drove it a week and got the shutdown in 200 mile, then 150 miles so I took it back to the dealer. After 4 days of testing (jeep sent them 26 pages of protocol) they replaced the DEF pump with one removed from a floor model- still no help. Finally they decided the catalytic converter would have to be replaced. Now waiting a week for that to arrive but they put my Jeep back together and I can drive it. I will be ordering the extended warranty soon.....
If they didn't drain and refill with fresh DEF, they should have. Usually its the simple problems that are overlooked. Also, the NOx sensor could be faulty. Let us know when your "part changers" figure it out
If your dealer had your car for 9 days now with "incorrect DEF" and "Car will not start in 175 miles" and an SA that wants to replace the catalytic converter, what would your next move be?
I might see if they'll drain the DEF, add a gallon of new stuff, and drive a hundred miles to see what happens. I'll take any and all advice.
From what I've read, the ECU has a number of emissions self-test that are done on every "drive cycle". A drive cycle requires the motor to go from ambient to 160°F and a certain number of miles driven. You can see the results if these test using the Torque app and an ODB2 adapter.
The error you are getting will not clear with a reset. In a properly working system, it will clear when it sees NOx emissions that are below the required threshold after x number if drive cycles. Bad DEF will cause these test to fail. Replacing with fresh DEF and driving several short trips (drive cycles) is the first thing to try. Mine reset in about 3-4 short trips (30 miles total) and 4-5 restarts. The last restart was in my driveway after it sat for an hour. The "xxx miles remaining - see dealer" warning went away and the stored code in the ECU cleared by itself.
Well...my CEL and warnings are back. Scratch EVERYTHING I have said. The CEL returned and "Engine will not start in 170 miles" displayed. This makes no sense because the last message said 180 miles before it stopped displaying and I thought it was cleared. That was 150 miles ago. I guess I am now forced to go see the incompetant service department.
The only possibilities I see is that the DEF fill marginally increased SCR efficiency but only marginally and now it is back...or I have a bad NOx sensor.
Perhaps if you want to take one more shot at this before bringing it in for service, you could completely drain the DEF tank.
The DEF tank is located just forward of the fuel tank and the fill hose has a disconnect where it enters the tank. If you pull the hose, you should be able to siphon the tank from that location.
The P20EE is the code driving my dealer to replace the catalytic converter. They drained and refilled the tank already. However, they hadn't driven it since. I picked it up to give it some drive cycles while they wait on the part in the hope of clearing everything.
Last two trips I heard the slight "chirping" on shut down, which someone posted having to do with the DEF. That's got me hopeful that things might be moving again. 170 miles left til shutdown. We'll see.
Its under the spare tire well and between the bumper and axle. There is a quick connect fitting in the left rear corner on top. Its gonna take a 3/8 tube. Gone to the store....
Excursion, quick question. Does your wk2 have the ORA2 skidplates? Wondering if they could help act as a heat shield against hot summer asphalt cooking the DEF? Thanks.
Yes, ORA2 so I have the skid plates. The plastic DEF tank sits in a metal bucket that encompasses the bottom 80% of the tank so it is well protected. The exhaust splits and goes around the tank so the mufflers are a heat source.
At this point, I don't know if I have bad DEF or a bad sensor. Hopefully, we can get to the bottom of it tomorrow. I have 160 miles and 60 to drive to the dealer. They have promised a loaner. I literally feel sick over this...I have a general distrust of dealerships although my good friend is the owner. My Jeep was among the first produced so maybe it just needs updates.
At the dealer waiting. So far, several TSBs where applied, DEF tank drained and refilled. Vehicle test driven long enough to clear the "xxx miles remaining until engine won't start" message. Now, we're getting a CEL for a bad NOx sensor. Oddly, the service tech said the DEF tank was almost empty and, as I reported here, I've filled it to nearly 100% in the last few days.
It is possible that my DEF level sensor is not working, I have a leak, ran it empty, got the warnings, refilled to show 100% and cleared the warnings, leaked it all out again, and warnings came back. That's a lot of issues all at once...I'm totally stumped.
EDIT: Bad info from the tech. The tank was NOT drained and refilled. The ultrasonic level sensor showed empty...then full. He claims only a low DEF level will cause the shutdown messages. I explained that "Incorrect DEF" messages where displayed before the shutdown warnings happened. I dont trust their abilities to logically diagnose issues.
Any idea exactly how they cleared the "xxx miles remaining"? I took mine back from the dealer with a fresh tank of DEF while they're waiting on the new catalytic converter. I've put about 50 miles on it and continually try to reset the P20EE but the countdown continues. I drop it off again tomorrow for the long weekend.
Any idea exactly how they cleared the "xxx miles remaining"? I took mine back from the dealer with a fresh tank of DEF while they're waiting on the new catalytic converter. I've put about 50 miles on it and continually try to reset the P20EE but the countdown continues. I drop it off again tomorrow for the long weekend.
The only way to clear the "xxx miles" countdown is to satisfy the built-in emissions test which include DEF quality and NOx quantities. The P20EE is the NOx sensor not seeing low enough emissions. Could be bad DEF, DEF injector, DEF pump, bad NOx sensor, etc.
Mine sits in the shop as I drive a loaner...minivan...yay.
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