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  #361  
Old 06-25-2015, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JEB1 View Post
The diesel engine doesn't have a catalytic converter so I'm not too comfortable with assuming the federal 8/80 applies the way it does to gas engines.
That's a reasonable concern.
Quote:
I took a look at the maximum care coverages and I didn't see any mention of the emissions system at all. Maybe I missed it. If you have a MaxCare policy, it would be worth your while to read it carefully and see what it covers.
I don't believe this is something one needs to be concerned about at this juncture. Maximum Care is a policy of exclusion, not inclusion (so things that *aren't* covered are listed, as opposed to them giving a list of things that they *do* cover). C.f. the max care verbiage excerpted here.

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  #362  
Old 06-26-2015, 07:24 AM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

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Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
That's a reasonable concern.

I don't believe this is something one needs to be concerned about at this juncture. Maximum Care is a policy of exclusion, not inclusion (so things that *aren't* covered are listed, as opposed to them giving a list of things that they *do* cover). C.f. the max care verbiage excerpted here.

Thank you for that excerpt. But I draw the opposite conclusion from the same language. The exclusion section specifically excludes emission systems components. If you're going to put all your interpretive weight behind the clause "including but not limited to" that appears in a different section that doesn't relate to the emissions system and use it to modify a separate section of the contract that specifically does mention emissions components, you might want to run it by an attorney familiar with contract law. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


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  #363  
Old 06-26-2015, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JEB1 View Post
The exclusion section specifically excludes emission systems components.
Interesting. I can't seem to find a section in the Maximum Care policy that excludes emissions system components, and searching the text of the policy didn't reveal anything like that. Mind posting the clause you are referring to here?
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  #364  
Old 06-26-2015, 09:31 AM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

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Originally Posted by JEB1 View Post
Thank you for that excerpt. But I draw the opposite conclusion from the same language. The exclusion section specifically excludes emission systems components. If you're going to put all your interpretive weight behind the clause "including but not limited to" that appears in a different section that doesn't relate to the emissions system and use it to modify a separate section of the contract that specifically does mention emissions components, you might want to run it by an attorney familiar with contract law. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


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I believe that the Fed frowns upon faulty mandatory emission equipment on vehicles and ups their scrutiny of the manufacturer should a bunch of emission equipment begin to fail and be denied repair. VW is cognizant of this and it is not uncommon to hear they perform an out-of-warranty repair on a TDI (HPFP or DPF heater, etc.) so as to avoid the negative publicity and backlash, particularly from the Federal regulators.
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  #365  
Old 06-26-2015, 10:44 AM
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MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
Interesting. I can't seem to find a section in the Maximum Care policy that excludes emissions system components, and searching the text of the policy didn't reveal anything like that. Mind posting the clause you are referring to here?

Pages 8-9 and your quoted language:

"THIS PLAN WILL NOT COVER, OR APPLY TO LOSS OR EXPENSE RESULTING FROM:

* * *

Battery and cables, any battery for a component, spark plugs and wires, lights (bulb, sealed beams, lenses), suspension alignment, wheel balancing, wiper blades, exhaust system components, heat shields and exhaust hangers; throttle bottle cleaning, evaporator deodorizing; carbon cleaning. . . ."

There might be a difference between the components that are failing on our vehicles (e.g., the cats) and "exhaust system components" but I am not sure of that. I hope there's a difference. But if there's not, I have no faith that a generic "including but not limited to" clause will get you around the carve out.


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  #366  
Old 06-26-2015, 10:53 AM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

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Originally Posted by AirBull View Post
I believe that the Fed frowns upon faulty mandatory emission equipment on vehicles and ups their scrutiny of the manufacturer should a bunch of emission equipment begin to fail and be denied repair. VW is cognizant of this and it is not uncommon to hear they perform an out-of-warranty repair on a TDI (HPFP or DPF heater, etc.) so as to avoid the negative publicity and backlash, particularly from the Federal regulators.

That's true. And Chrysler is a really good corporate citizen. That's why the NHTSA has scheduled a hearing for July in regards to the safety recalls. I'm sure it's for the Administration to say "Good job, Chrysler, for being so responsive."


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  #367  
Old 06-26-2015, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JEB1 View Post
There might be a difference between the components that are failing on our vehicles (e.g., the cats) and "exhaust system components" but I am not sure of that. I hope there's a difference.
Okay, I decided that we've all had enough speculation; therefore, I just called them and asked.

The Chrysler rep confirmed that the DPF and SCR catalyst are covered by the 8 year/80k mile emissions warranty (so repairs are $0 out of pocket rather than having the Max Care copay). However, it does turn out that neither of these would be covered by Max Care. Max Care only goes up to 8 years post-purchase anyway; therefore, this gap could only possibly affect those who would have 80,001 to 120k miles on their vehicle in under 8 years. I think this gives us all a lot of breathing room to wait to see if the new SCR part permanently fixes the issue.

Anyone else interested in confirming for themselves can call MoparŪ Vehicle Protection at 1-800-521-9922 and ask about the DPF and SCR part coverage. SCR part numbers are 68243268AB [4WD] or 68243267AB [2WD] (for now, haha).

It's somewhat ironic that the more obvious "out" for coverage (i.e. whether these DPF/SCR components would be covered under the federally mandated warranty despite not being on the "named component" list in the law that explicitly defines what must be covered for 8y/80k) turned out to be covered whereas the Max Care policy that explicitly differentiates between emissions and exhaust components does *not* cover these emissions parts.
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  #368  
Old 06-26-2015, 01:02 PM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
Okay, I decided that we've all had enough speculation; therefore, I just called them and asked.

The Chrysler rep confirmed that the DPF and SCR catalyst are covered by the Federal 8 year/80k mile warranty (so repairs are $0 out of pocket). However, it does turn out that neither of these would be covered by Max Care. Max Care only goes up to 8 years post-purchase anyway; therefore, this gap would only possibly affect those who would have 80,001 to 120k miles on their vehicle in under 8 years.

Anyone else interested in confirming for themselves can feel free to call MoparŪ Vehicle Protection at 1-800-521-9922 and ask about the DPF and SCR part coverage. SCR part numbers are 68243268AB [4WD] or 68243267AB [2WD] (for now, haha).

It's somewhat ironic that the more obvious "out" for coverage (i.e. whether these DPF/SCR components would be covered under the federally mandated warranty, despite not being on the "named component" list in the law) turned out to be covered whereas the Max Care policy that explicitly differentiates between emissions and exhaust components does *not* cover these emissions parts.
I believe the MaxCare contract should still include the DPF/SCR components, but only after the initial 8/80k Emission warranty expires, (i.e. between 80k and 120k under eight years.) It won't cover it as long as the Federal emission warranty is still in place, and that is normal how these policies work.

If MaxCare is an exclusion policy (which it is,) does it specifically exclude these components? i.e. Lawyer. (Just look at the way our very own SCOTUS can interpret two different meanings from the same text.) Exclusion type warranties are by definition, not ambiguous. Or at least they shouldn't be!
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  #369  
Old 06-26-2015, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AirBull View Post
I believe the MaxCare contract should still include the DPF/SCR components, but only after the initial 8/80k Emission warranty expires, (i.e. between 80k and 120k under eight years.)
I very specifically asked about this and the rep said that these parts would *not* be covered in the scenario where the 8y/80k emissions warranty had lapsed but Max Care was still in effect (i.e. a <8 year old vehicle with 80,001 to 120k miles in the case of the top-tier Max Care policy). The rep said she ran scenarios in the computer for the DPF and the SCR (separately) for a <8 year old vehicle with over 80k miles (and under 120k) and both times the part in question was listed as not covered by Max Care (or anything else).

Quote:
Exclusion type warranties are by definition, not ambiguous.
The only ambiguity was whether the DPF & SCR are considered "exhaust system components" (which are specifically excluded), when the policy specifically refers to an "emission system" elsewhere ("tampering with the emission system or with any parts that could affect that system" is the relevant exclusion clause where they chose to distinguish between "emission" rather than "exhaust"). Also notable is that the federal emissions warranty obviously differentiates between emissions equipment and the exhaust system components (pipes, mufflers, etc), but... "oh well".

Personally, I'm satisfied. 8y/80k warranty coverage with $0 copay works for me for these parts. If the new SCRs are dropping like flies we'll know before that lapses. Also, I know I am highly unlikely to surpass 80k miles in 8 years, so Chrysler's position of choosing to cover these parts under the emissions warranty when they weren't required to do so by law is actually is to my benefit, even though I think it is weird that they exclude them from Max Care.
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  #370  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:23 PM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
I very specifically asked about this and the rep said that these parts would *not* be covered in the scenario where the federal 8y/80k emissions warranty had lapsed but Max Care was still in effect (i.e. a <8 year old vehicle with 80,001 to 120k miles in the case of the top-tier Max Care policy). The rep said she ran scenarios in the computer for the DPF and the SCR (separately) for a <8 year old vehicle with over 80k miles (and under 120k) and both times the part in question was listed as not covered by Max Care (or anything else).


The only ambiguity was whether the DPF & SCR are considered "exhaust system components" (which are specifically excluded), when the policy specifically refers to an "emission system" elsewhere ("tampering with the emission system or with any parts that could affect that system" is the relevant exclusion clause where they chose to distinguish between "emission" rather than "exhaust"). Also notable is that the federal emissions warranty obviously differentiates between emissions equipment and the exhaust system components (pipes, mufflers, etc), but... "oh well".

Personally, I'm satisfied. 8y/80k warranty coverage with $0 copay works for me for these parts. If the new SCRs are dropping like flies we'll know before that lapses. Also, I know I am highly unlikely to surpass 80k miles in 8 years, so Chrysler's position of choosing to cover these parts under the emissions warranty when they weren't required to do so by law is actually is to my benefit, even though I think it is weird that they exclude them from Max Care.
I agree, the 2015's already have the new parts and updates and I don't foresee we all still having issues after 80k miles. BMW did the same thing on my Dad's 335d where they replaced nearly all the DEF tank parts under warranty as they came up with a design that superseded it, and even VW had a firmware update for my SCR parts on my TDI Touareg.

One thing I would point out though, is that neither the DPF or SCR have anything to do with the exhaust, they are both clearly emission related and thereby should not be confused with being part of the exhaust system. Barring an emission related exclusion after the expiration of the federal emission warranty, I don't see any language that would exclude them of their obligation in the policy for the DPF and/or SCR.
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  #371  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:30 PM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
Okay, I decided that we've all had enough speculation; therefore, I just called them and asked.

The Chrysler rep confirmed that the DPF and SCR catalyst are covered by the Federal 8 year/80k mile warranty (so repairs are $0 out of pocket rather than having the Max Care copay). However, it does turn out that neither of these would be covered by Max Care. Max Care only goes up to 8 years post-purchase anyway; therefore, this gap could only possibly affect those who would have 80,001 to 120k miles on their vehicle in under 8 years. I think this gives us all a lot of breathing room to wait to see if the new SCR part permanently fixes the issue.

Anyone else interested in confirming for themselves can call MoparŪ Vehicle Protection at 1-800-521-9922 and ask about the DPF and SCR part coverage. SCR part numbers are 68243268AB [4WD] or 68243267AB [2WD] (for now, haha).

It's somewhat ironic that the more obvious "out" for coverage (i.e. whether these DPF/SCR components would be covered under the federally mandated warranty despite not being on the "named component" list in the law that explicitly defines what must be covered for 8y/80k) turned out to be covered whereas the Max Care policy that explicitly differentiates between emissions and exhaust components does *not* cover these emissions parts.
Thanks for doing the legwork. The representative's interpretation is making sense in sort of a roundabout way. I did some poking around to see if there was a "plain ordinary and natural meaning" to the term "exhaust system components" (and I know what cf. means, too, by the way) and there appears to be. I found this in a text: "The primary components of the automotive exhaust system are: exhaust manifold, engine pipe, catalytic converter, exhaust brackets, muffler and components such as the resonator and tail pipe." Exhaust system components. That essentially means everything from the headers to the tailpipe is part of the exhaust system if what I found is a common understanding in the automotive world. So, it makes some sense that the MaxCare warranty carve out for "exhaust system components" excludes the parts that are now failing on our vehicles. A little additional research on what "exhaust system components" means in the diesel context led me to a tech manual describing the "exhaust system" on a Mercedes diesel and it referred to a "catalytic converter" as part of the diesel exhaust system. So, what Jeep refers to as an "SCR Catalyst" may indeed be the same animal as a catalytic converter, making it subject to the federal 8/80 warranty. At least a good argument could be made for that interpretation--very good since your phone call seems to suggest that Chrysler sees it that way.
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  #372  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:44 PM
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Re: MIL & P20EE again & again & again...

Good read from Cummings on DEF and SCR.

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pd...es/MB10033.pdf
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