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Old 09-21-2016, 12:19 AM
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New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Some people just want whatever's cheapest that meets the specs for their EcoDiesel motor oil. Personally, I'd rather spend a little more to get superior protection since I can occasionally run up against harsh conditions without any warning and I plan to keep this vehicle as long as economically feasible. Under the previous oil standard, I'd been running Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 and have been happy with how it sounds. I'm still a month out before I change that at 20K miles (10K mile interval) and get an oil analysis done on that, but others' oil analysis for that oil has been positive.

I've been digging through oil specs and tests for awhile now to get my head around why the spec change and what oil I'm going to choose.

My theory for why the spec changed (gathered from numerous forum discussions, test data, logic, and anecdotal evidence - troll food, I know) is as follows:
  1. FCA wanted a unified diesel oil spec to reduce inventory costs.
  2. Dealer techs were routinely putting in the wrong 5W-30 and causing various failures. Change the spec to 5W-40, mark the oil cap, and get less dunce action, reducing warranty claims.
  3. 5W-40 protects a little better with regards to high pressure and high shear conditions than 5W-30.

I've chosen Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 as the oil I'll be running for meeting the new spec. It is CJ-4 / ACEA E9 / Cummins CES 20081 compliant. It doesn't say FCA MS-10902, but Cummins CES 20081 and MS-10902 are interchangeable ( https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...-1#Post4155373 ). The owners manual says you should use an oil that "meets FCA Material Standard MS-10902 and the API CJ-4 or ACEA E9/E7 or ACEA A3/B4". Even though it isn't labeled MS-10902, it does *meet* the standard because of Cummins CES 20081, so there's no chance of FCA wriggling out of a warranty claim on that basis.

Besides it meeting specs, here are the other reasons I've chosen the Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 instead of the Shell Rotella T6 that everyone else seems to be so orgasmic over:
  1. Higher temperature stability.
  2. Lower pour point.
  3. Higher viscosity at full operating temperature.
  4. Initial TBN is slightly lower, but TBN has not been an issue for 10K mile oil change intervals for this engine in anyone's oil analysis.
  5. Lower metal additive levels (moly in particular) will enhance the longevity of the emissions equipment and minimize the harmful effects of EGR.
  6. Sulfated ash percentage is equal to the Shell Rotella T6.

A good chart at Rotella: The world's first ever combined hair oil, foot ointment, and salad dressing - Jeep Cherokee Forum shows these specs in an easy to compare format.

Drawbacks to Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40? It's harder to find and is about 40% more expensive than the Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. I'll spend $70 on oil each change instead of $50, which is about a $200 difference over the course of 10 years of oil changes. To me, that's negligible, especially given the added peace of mind that I've given it the best protection I can.

Besides lower cost, fanboy glee, and the slightly better initial TBN, is there any other reason to believe that Shell Rotella T6 will protect better than Mobil Delvac 1 ESP?

PS What's with all these ridiculous oil names for quality compression engine oil? Rotella? Delvac? Is there history or is someone on meth?

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Old 09-21-2016, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akinney View Post
Lower metal additive levels (moly in particular) will enhance the longevity of the emissions equipment and minimize the harmful effects of EGR.
You say this as if it's a good thing. Those additives protect the engine. Now, if one cares more about the DPF than the engine then perhaps one would be pleased with a lower additive level. My goal is to protect my engine as much as possible while retaining the warranty by using spec oil. If my DPF gets choked off it will either be replaced under warranty or hacked off and replaced with a delete tune after warranty.

FWIW, back when MS-11106 reigned, I switched to Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 on my second oil change specifically because I found out it had *more* moly than the Pennzoil. My UOA wear indicator numbers markedly improved, and consistently showed a moly level in the 70's for that Mobil 1 ESP product. I don't believe it's under serious debate that having these additives is *not* beneficial for the engine.

If the moly numbers are as low as that chart indicate for this Mobil 1 product, suppose I could consider using once my warranty expires and then adding some LiquiMoly or something to augment the moly levels back up to the 70's where Rotella T6 and the old spec Mobil 1 ESP product are.
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Old 09-21-2016, 03:12 AM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Quote:
Originally Posted by akinney View Post
Besides lower cost, fanboy glee, and the slightly better initial TBN, is there any other reason to believe that Shell Rotella T6 will protect better than Mobil Delvac 1 ESP?

High Temperature/High Shear Kinematic Viscosity


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Old 09-21-2016, 04:38 AM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

I am also going to run Mobil Delvac. It meets all the specs and Shell Rotella is not available in Australia anyway.

Trevor
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:26 PM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarklaflare View Post
High Temperature/High Shear Kinematic Viscosity
What numbers/measurements do I need to look for to compare these two products on this spec?

@Roadkill: I'll concede that more metal additives would protect the engine better, however, there is nothing to say that they are the *only* way to protect against wear. Mobil must be doing something different to get such a low pour point and high temperature stability and maybe that protects just as well as more traditional oils with metal additives. I have no hard data to back this up, but I do plan to continue getting oil analysis and will change if the data shows the oil to be allowing excess wear.
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Old 09-21-2016, 04:15 PM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Quote:
Originally Posted by akinney View Post
What numbers/measurements do I need to look for to compare these two products on this spec?
There's a column in the "Good Table" labeled HTHS cP @150 deg. C.
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Old 09-22-2016, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akinney View Post
Mobil must be doing something different to get such a low pour point and high temperature stability and maybe that protects just as well as more traditional oils with metal additives.
Whew, lots of conjecture in that statement. As for me, I'm going to run the Rotella T6 because I trust the moly additives in the T6 as a known quantity, as opposed to speculating that there's unspecified extra magic in the delvac that makes it protect "just as well".

Data will eventually elucidate this. My point is that, thanks to UOA perf data, I ran the more expensive Mobil 1 ESP during the MS-11106 days and now I'm choosing Rotella T6 because I anticipate better engine protection than a low-additive formulation like delvac seems to be. Perhaps delvac truly is made of magic... in which case I'll switch once UOA data seems to support that. It would be even more interesting to compare the engine wear characteristics of delvac head to head against Rotella that is drained and replaced with new oil at roughly half the service interval (given the Rotella costs approximately half as much).

Ultimately, my conjecture is that the best overall choice for engine protection would be a regular formula ("high ash") synthetic oil and damn the memory of the hacked-off DPF. That's probably what I'll do after the warranty is exhausted.
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Old 09-22-2016, 11:05 AM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

I have a bit of a different perspective on the subject. We have a fleet of trucks, 12 dodge cummins with oldest being 2002 at over 900,000 miles and the newest, a 2016 with 10,000 miles. Soon the fleet will include an ED. The combined miles on the on the fleet is around 7,000,000 miles. All oil changes are done in house, oil is purchased in drums, and all the filters come from Baldwin. To the best of our recollection, we have never experienced an oil related failure.

So what oil do we use? Low bid. We have three jobbers to choose from for bulk oil and fuel and we bid the contract yearly. Our oil spec is quite simple. It has to meet the requirements of the newest truck and be backwards compatible. Over the years we probably have had every oil brand in our shop. Currently the low bid is Shell.

Regarding DPF's and EGR, both are hell on an engine. But by far we have more issues with EGR systems than DPF.
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Old 09-22-2016, 06:38 PM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Quote:
Originally Posted by akinney View Post
Some people just want whatever's cheapest that meets the specs for their EcoDiesel motor oil. Personally, I'd rather spend a little more to get superior protection since I can occasionally run up against harsh conditions without any warning and I plan to keep this vehicle as long as economically feasible. Under the previous oil standard, I'd been running Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 and have been happy with how it sounds. I'm still a month out before I change that at 20K miles (10K mile interval) and get an oil analysis done on that, but others' oil analysis for that oil has been positive.

I've been digging through oil specs and tests for awhile now to get my head around why the spec change and what oil I'm going to choose.

My theory for why the spec changed (gathered from numerous forum discussions, test data, logic, and anecdotal evidence - troll food, I know) is as follows:
  1. FCA wanted a unified diesel oil spec to reduce inventory costs.
  2. Dealer techs were routinely putting in the wrong 5W-30 and causing various failures. Change the spec to 5W-40, mark the oil cap, and get less dunce action, reducing warranty claims.
  3. 5W-40 protects a little better with regards to high pressure and high shear conditions than 5W-30.

I've chosen Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 as the oil I'll be running for meeting the new spec. It is CJ-4 / ACEA E9 / Cummins CES 20081 compliant. It doesn't say FCA MS-10902, but Cummins CES 20081 and MS-10902 are interchangeable ( https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...-1#Post4155373 ). The owners manual says you should use an oil that "meets FCA Material Standard MS-10902 and the API CJ-4 or ACEA E9/E7 or ACEA A3/B4". Even though it isn't labeled MS-10902, it does *meet* the standard because of Cummins CES 20081, so there's no chance of FCA wriggling out of a warranty claim on that basis.

Besides it meeting specs, here are the other reasons I've chosen the Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 instead of the Shell Rotella T6 that everyone else seems to be so orgasmic over:
  1. Higher temperature stability.
  2. Lower pour point.
  3. Higher viscosity at full operating temperature.
  4. Initial TBN is slightly lower, but TBN has not been an issue for 10K mile oil change intervals for this engine in anyone's oil analysis.
  5. Lower metal additive levels (moly in particular) will enhance the longevity of the emissions equipment and minimize the harmful effects of EGR.
  6. Sulfated ash percentage is equal to the Shell Rotella T6.

A good chart at Rotella: The world's first ever combined hair oil, foot ointment, and salad dressing - Jeep Cherokee Forum shows these specs in an easy to compare format.

Drawbacks to Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40? It's harder to find and is about 40% more expensive than the Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. I'll spend $70 on oil each change instead of $50, which is about a $200 difference over the course of 10 years of oil changes. To me, that's negligible, especially given the added peace of mind that I've given it the best protection I can.

Besides lower cost, fanboy glee, and the slightly better initial TBN, is there any other reason to believe that Shell Rotella T6 will protect better than Mobil Delvac 1 ESP?

PS What's with all these ridiculous oil names for quality compression engine oil? Rotella? Delvac? Is there history or is someone on meth?

Your theory is to why FCA is changing to 5w40 for cost savings doesn't explain why they are taking new unsold 3.0L diesels off the lot and dumping the new 5w30 and putting in 5w40 before they are sold. Why not just run the 5w30 for the first initial break in period & change to 5w40 going forward after that? What you are thinking seems logical, but why dump the correct 5w30 when they know it's the correct 5w30?
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Old 09-23-2016, 05:14 AM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
You say this as if it's a good thing. Those additives protect the engine. Now, if one cares more about the DPF than the engine then perhaps one would be pleased with a lower additive level. My goal is to protect my engine as much as possible while retaining the warranty by using spec oil. If my DPF gets choked off it will either be replaced under warranty or hacked off and replaced with a delete tune after warranty.

FWIW, back when MS-11106 reigned, I switched to Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 on my second oil change specifically because I found out it had *more* moly than the Pennzoil. My UOA wear indicator numbers markedly improved, and consistently showed a moly level in the 70's for that Mobil 1 ESP product. I don't believe it's under serious debate that having these additives is *not* beneficial for the engine.

If the moly numbers are as low as that chart indicate for this Mobil 1 product, suppose I could consider using once my warranty expires and then adding some LiquiMoly or something to augment the moly levels back up to the 70's where Rotella T6 and the old spec Mobil 1 ESP product are.
Whilst I agree that Moly is a very good anti Wear additive, it is not the only one in oils. Boron is also AW and the Delvac has nearly twice as much as the Rotella. Other than that both oils have similar amounts of Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous and Zinc.
I know that Delvac has a group 4 base, but have not been able to find the base for Rotella.
Looking at the numbers both oils will be good, in my case where I cannot get Rotella it's an easy decission.

Trevor
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Old 09-23-2016, 10:53 AM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

I just purchased my 2016 Ecodiesel GC limited on September 12th of last week, currently have 575 miles on it. Should I go and get an oil change to the new spec or just run it for the first 10k miles?
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Old 09-23-2016, 11:33 AM
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Re: New EcoDiesel oil standard and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

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Originally Posted by JeepIdiot View Post
I just purchased my 2016 Ecodiesel GC limited on September 12th of last week, currently have 575 miles on it. Should I go and get an oil change to the new spec or just run it for the first 10k miles?

If you purchased it as new from your dealer, it should already have the new spec oil in it. If the oil filler cap hasn't been updated with the 5W40 sticker, and there is no supplemental information placed in your owner's documentation, ask them for verification that the RRT was applied.


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