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Old 09-29-2014, 08:25 PM
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Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

Hello Everyone,

Long time lurker, first time poster, here.

I have a 2014 JGC Overland Diesel 4x4. Purchased it in January of 2014 and now have ~13000 miles on it.

My Jeep is currently in the shop due to various codes lighting up on my EVIC last week. I have done a substantial amount of reading on this forum about the various codes, but no one else seems to have experienced the same scenario, so I decided to write a post and get your feedback. I also have no OBD reader (I just ordered one for the future!) so I don't know the specific #'s. Just the EVIC warnings.

About a week and a half ago, my CEL came on. I read the manual and it stated that if it doesn't go away in a few cycles, to bring it into the dealer. Unfortunately, the next day I was planning a vacation that I needed the Jeep to pull my boat. I didn't have time to deal with the CEL, so I figured I would deal with it when I got home.

I left the next day (Tuesday), towing my boat about ~150 miles on the freeway. On Thursday, the EVIC warned me that the Diesel Exhaust Filter was nearing full and to drive at highway speeds. I was staying on a small island only a few miles long, with a highest speed of 40mph. I was also driving maybe 10 miles a day average probably 30mph. So no way to get to highway speeds, with very small trips, low miles and low speeds.

I came out to drive to town Saturday morning and the EVIC was saying that there was an issue with the Electronic Throttle Control, and I was instantly put into limp mode, unable to get out of 3rd Gear. It also told me the Filter was now full and to see a dealer. I drove maybe 3 miles. Turned the car on and off a few times thinking it might go away when it then told me that I had incorrect DEF, and see dealer. Never, with any of these warnings did I have a mileage countdown until no restart or did it warn me that I would go into Limp mode.

So, I called a dealer that was nearby, brought it in, dropped the Jeep off after hours, and was told they would look at it on Monday.

Today, I heard from the dealer (who when I called on Saturday, told me he didn't have anyone "certified" to work on the specific car, or something like that, but he would take a look anyway). The guy basically told me that I had bad DEF and that he would be trying a couple things, one of which would require dropping the fuel tank out to access the DEF tank to flush the system. He said he wanted to do some more investigating and he would get back to me about what he wants to do, and if there would be any costs.

SO. With all that being said, I did quite a bit of research on JeepGarage reading the posts about DEF and the ETC issues. My question is this, are these two problems related, or not? It seems to me that bad DEF could be causing the Incorrect DEF issue (although it could also be the injectors, or CSR or any of the other things that caused everyone else issues). But it doesn't seem to link up with people who had the ETC issues and limp mode.

I also am interested in why I never got any warnings about "Not Restarting in XXX miles" codes or the Limp Mode Warnings.

I last filled the DEF tank to nearly full about 6 weeks ago with ~2500 miles since then. I now know not to fill to full anymore. And I understand that you can actually flush the DEF without removing the fuel tank.

Basically I am looking for any advice anyone might have, or insight into the issues.

I am waiting to hear from the dealer again, and I am looking to fight any costs they try to push onto me (which is what the guy made it sound like was going to happen.)

Thanks in advance for your help and input,

Jake

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  #2  
Old 09-29-2014, 08:35 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

There was a TSB a while back for a computer reflash...one of the symptoms was erronious CEL codes.

not sure if this applies to you but worth checking out for all diesel owners:


http://www.wk2jeeps.com/tsb/tsb_wk2_1801814b.pdf
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:47 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

Do you know when that came out? I had it into my normal dealer for my first oil change in May/June. They would have flashed new software at that point, correct?

Edit: Saw your edit/link. Thanks!
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:52 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

No. Most tsbs are only applied when customer complains of symptoms. I dont know when it came out. Read it or google the tsb # if u want more info.

good luck.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:54 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

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Originally Posted by Jake43 View Post
I also am interested in why I never got any warnings about "Not Restarting in XXX miles" codes or the Limp Mode Warnings.
I think you did. You've mentioned you got an EVIC warning of "Filter nearing full". Once this shows up you must drive at highway speeds ASAP. From user experiences here in the forum, any delay in doing so will get the DPF completely clogged and throw you into limp mode. So it's very probable that your limp mode was DPF based and not DEF issue. The dealer should do a stationary regen, clear codes then test drive it. It's possible that the DPF clogging was so bad it threw the rest of the emissions diags off. So the dealer should start with the DPF, then see if the DEF issue still persists.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:12 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

The DPF and DEF are unrelated systems. Tell the dealer to force a stationary regeneration to clear the DPF. It has filled up causing limp mode.

The countdown came weeks after my first Incorrect DEF message. I agree with the others that clearing the DPF might allow downstream sensors to function properly.

Now, the reason it filled up may be related to the CEL. Some forum members have claimed that certain engine codes will set the CEL and prevent a proper regeneration cycle. I have not seen this and drove mine with the CEL on while witnessing it regening. Maybe you had a code that inhibits regens where I did not.

I will say that a failing Catalytic Converter, which has been experienced by many here including me, can throw various DEF related errors. If you have a P20EE code that keeps coming back, you may have a bad Cat.

Having a code scanner is handy. Being able to reset the CEL might allow regen...not sure on that. I have a Scanguage2 installed in my console cubby. I can monitor the exhaust temps and see it rise during regen and that let's me know everything is working.
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:18 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

After telling the dealer that I simply wanted to do a stationary regen cycle, and not have them flush the tank, the service guy told me he would talk with the manager about what would be covered under warranty. He just called back now saying that they are unable to due a stationary regen cycle because the bad DEF is preventing the engine from running properly.

This doesn't check out with what I believe or you guys are saying. What is preventing the regen cycle and the car being in limp mode isn't the DEF, it is the CEL and the Throttle Control warnings, correct?

They are also wanting $650 to do all this work (that includes flushing the DEF system).

Any thoughts?
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Old 09-30-2014, 05:09 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake43 View Post
After telling the dealer that I simply wanted to do a stationary regen cycle, and not have them flush the tank, the service guy told me he would talk with the manager about what would be covered under warranty. He just called back now saying that they are unable to due a stationary regen cycle because the bad DEF is preventing the engine from running properly.

This doesn't check out with what I believe or you guys are saying. What is preventing the regen cycle and the car being in limp mode isn't the DEF, it is the CEL and the Throttle Control warnings, correct?

They are also wanting $650 to do all this work (that includes flushing the DEF system).

Any thoughts?
Smells fishy...I'd limp over to another dealer. Why would you have bad DEF? They need to reset your code and perform a stationary regen. A non-functional DEF won't harm anything. The fluid is injected after the DPF and before the CAT and won't cause damage. Your DPF is full...they need to clear it with a regen.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:59 PM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

He is telling me that in order to do a regen cycle, they need to flush out the "bad" DEF, because that is what is preventing the engine from performing properly.

Unfortunately it is a two hour drive from down to my normal dealer where I left the car, and that's without being in limp mode.

I'm going to tell him that if they think that cleaning the DEF tank will allow them to do a regen, then fine. But if after flushing the DEF, it still doesn't let them do a regen cycle (which it won't), I won't be paying for the DEF flush.

The guy is quite adamant that the "Bad" DEF is causing all the problems.
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Old 10-01-2014, 10:23 AM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

Got a check engine light a week ago on the way home from work. No message in the EVIC as to what the problem might be. Was planning on an 800 mile round trip the following weekend so I needed to get it looked at. Took it to the dealer last Thursday and picked it up late that afternoon. Service manager said the check engine light was triggered by crystallized DEF clogging up the injector. Said he pulled the DEF pump, cleaned it and the injector and the check engine light cleared. He did not drain and clean the DEF tank. Even though my mileage is 41k at this point the dealer did not charge me for the work.

Therefore I took my trip and all was fine. I'm sure I'll (probably we all will) deal with the DEF issue again in the future.

Treeguy
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Old 10-01-2014, 11:51 AM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

Cleaning the injector may be something we can DIY. Removal and Install is straightforward. Water is the cleaning agent.
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Old 10-01-2014, 11:54 AM
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Re: Odd Series of Codes (Bad DEF?)

I have a suspicion that the 'false engine code' tsb has disabled my def. Maybe that was their solution instead of fixing everyones under warranty?
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