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Old 09-23-2016, 10:14 PM
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Service DEF system : See Dealer

I just had my DEF injector line replaced from the rear tank to the injector. Dealer did Shifter Recall & Cat replacement at the same time. After driving 5-10 miles from the dealership I got a cel light & Service DEF : see dealer message on the dash screen. Is it possible to just have trapped air in that long line from the tank? Is there anyway to reset the Service DEF message? I got the light out with Torque app and it had P20E9 powertrain code present. Can't get the Service DEF message to go out. Thanks.

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Old 09-24-2016, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chadg2 View Post
Is there anyway to reset the Service DEF message? I got the light out with Torque app and it had P20E9 powertrain code present. Can't get the Service DEF message to go out.
Eh. I had that pop up randomly one day (Service DEF / P20E9 & P204F). Here's the deal: the EPA forced some DTC's to be special so that they can't be cleared by a regular tool. You can see the code remains listed in Torque if you scan it again now, correct?

How surprised are you about this, given that the EPA also coerced FCA through regulations to include "inducement" code in your vehicle firmware to make your vehicle disable itself if the DEF / SCR system is unhappy? You are allowed to drive your vehicle only by the grace of your EPA overlords. Well, that is unless you decide to defy their tyranny and take a stand for freedom by running a GDE tune. FWIW, I'm pretty sure I read that the Rebel Alliance loaded GDE tunes in all their fighters when they took on the EPA Death Star in Episode VI.

Anyway, if your issue was transient, as mine was, then now you've cleared the DTC and the problem hasn't immediately recurred. So, the "Service DEF" message pops up, but no CEL is on. If so, then all you need to do is drive around a bit. If my hazy memory serves, the vehicle will be convinced the problem is gone if it hasnt recurred after three engine restarts plus some minimal driving (I think I drove about 20 miles). At that point the historical DTC regarding the DEF will no longer be visible in Torque, no "Service DEF" message will display in EVIC, and your EPA masters will allow you to continue to drive your vehicle... for now.
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Old 09-24-2016, 08:52 AM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

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Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
Eh. I had that pop up randomly one day (Service DEF / P20E9 & P204F). Here's the deal: the EPA forced some DTC's to be special so that they can't be cleared by a regular tool. You can see the code remains listed in Torque if you scan it again now, correct?

How surprised are you about this, given that the EPA also coerced FCA through regulations to include "inducement" code in your vehicle firmware to make your vehicle disable itself if the DEF / SCR system is unhappy? You are allowed to drive your vehicle only by the grace of your EPA overlords. Well, that is unless you decide to defy their tyranny and take a stand for freedom by running a GDE tune. FWIW, I'm pretty sure I read that the Rebel Alliance loaded GDE tunes in all their fighters when they took on the EPA Death Star in Episode VI.

Anyway, if your issue was transient, as mine was, then now you've cleared the DTC and the problem hasn't immediately recurred. So, the "Service DEF" message pops up, but no CEL is on. If so, then all you need to do is drive around a bit. If my hazy memory serves, the vehicle will be convinced the problem is gone if it hasnt recurred after three engine restarts plus some minimal driving (I think I drove about 20 miles). At that point the historical DTC regarding the DEF will no longer be visible in Torque, no "Service DEF" message will display in EVIC, and your EPA masters will allow you to continue to drive your vehicle... for now.

I pulled off the skid plate in back and removed the line to the injector. Started the truck and not a drip of DEF fluid comes out while the truck is running. Does this line pressurize when vehicle starts or when does DEF fluid flow to the injector from the tank? Gauge at dash shows 1/4 DEF. When I pound on tank it sounds empty.
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Old 09-24-2016, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by chadg2 View Post
Does this line pressurize when vehicle starts or when does DEF fluid flow to the injector from the tank?
Uncertain, but the way I know my DEF system is deffing is that the exhaust smells like cat urine. Let the exhaust waft to your nose and appreciate its bouquet. Any notes of eau de urine there?

But really: all I did was clear the DTC, start/stop the engine, start it again, drive it 10 miles or so, park & stop the engine, start it, drive the ~10 miles back home, park, stop it and start it to check... message gone, and "historical code" area was clear in Torque. Never came back. I wasn't going to waste a trip to the dealer on a transient emissions code.

I also presume that you're aware that the DEF/SCR system is of no direct benefit to you. The system converts colorless, odorless NOx into nitrogen gas and water. The only way you know it's working is that your garage smells faintly like urine when the engine is running. This contrasts with, say, the DPF. The DPF costs you in terms of fuel economy (and probably engine longevity) but it also muffles the engine and captures the particulates that make old school diesel engines stink. So, there's some direct benefit for you with the DPF even though it comes at a price.

Therefore, if my DPF broke during my warranty period, I'd get it fixed. Conversely, if I were to learn my DEF/SCR system weren't functioning and there were also no errors or threats of imminent doom from the EPA-poisoned firmware — well, I'd call that victory.
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Old 09-24-2016, 07:02 PM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadg2 View Post
I pulled off the skid plate in back and removed the line to the injector. Started the truck and not a drip of DEF fluid comes out while the truck is running. Does this line pressurize when vehicle starts or when does DEF fluid flow to the injector from the tank? Gauge at dash shows 1/4 DEF. When I pound on tank it sounds empty.
The tank has a pump just underneath it so yes, the line is pressurized. The pump turns on when the PCM decides to. This usually happens when the emissions train reaches operating temperature (the catalyst sieve in the SCR needs to be hot for the reactions to take place). The injector has a solenoid that opens around once a second to spray DEF into the catalyst chamber. It has a very typical repeating "click" that can be easily identified. DEF is odorless and colorless and crystallizes when it dries up. Once it is activated in the SCR it does smell. The DEF sensor in the tank is a finicky ultrasonic sensor that sometimes is wrong and sometimes gets stuck on a value. it is very probable that the dealer replaced the line and had to drop the tank (which requires draining it) and forgot to fill it (I'm not going to ba amazed if that's the case). Try loading it with a few gallons and see if the error clears.
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Old 09-24-2016, 08:00 PM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

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Originally Posted by netboy View Post
The tank has a pump just underneath it so yes, the line is pressurized. The pump turns on when the PCM decides to. This usually happens when the emissions train reaches operating temperature (the catalyst sieve in the SCR needs to be hot for the reactions to take place). The injector has a solenoid that opens around once a second to spray DEF into the catalyst chamber. It has a very typical repeating "click" that can be easily identified. DEF is odorless and colorless and crystallizes when it dries up. Once it is activated in the SCR it does smell. The DEF sensor in the tank is a finicky ultrasonic sensor that sometimes is wrong and sometimes gets stuck on a value. it is very probable that the dealer replaced the line and had to drop the tank (which requires draining it) and forgot to fill it (I'm not going to ba amazed if that's the case). Try loading it with a few gallons and see if the error clears.


First of all thank you for this info. I asked the dealer "not to add def" I'm so damn paranoid of anyone getting def into my fuel tank, I'd rather do it myself. I drove it home and I know it had to be either empty or very close due to the leak I had before the line got replaced. I didn't realize the vehicle needs to be warm for the def system to operate. I added 2.5 gal today and can't get the light to go out and stay out.
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Old 09-24-2016, 10:45 PM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

If the dealer did drain and drop the tank as netboy suggested, and then didn't at least partially refill the tank, it means they also could not have properly primed and bleed the injector pump and line. This would explain the code.
I find it unconscionable that a factory authorized service facility would short cut the procedures to this extent. Even at the owner's request to not add DEF. But then, guess it wouldn't surprise me.


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Old 09-25-2016, 08:57 AM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

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Originally Posted by clarklaflare View Post
If the dealer did drain and drop the tank as netboy suggested, and then didn't at least partially refill the tank, it means they also could not have properly primed and bleed the injector pump and line. This would explain the code.
I find it unconscionable that a factory authorized service facility would short cut the procedures to this extent. Even at the owner's request to not add DEF. But then, guess it wouldn't surprise me.


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From looking under the vehicle it doesn't look like they had to drop the tank. I can reach the entire line without any obstructed areas. I emailed GDE and they think the dealership forgot to reset the learned pump pressure from when the line was leaking(low pressure). Now that the new line is on without any leaks, the computer thinks the pressure is too high. I'm going to call the dealership on Monday. Thanks.
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Old 10-01-2016, 03:21 PM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

Not sure if responding to this thread jinxed my JGC , but a few days ago I got the same "Service DEF system : See Dealer". Pulled DTC's and I've had a current, pending and permanent P20E9 (Reductant Pressure High). Searching the web suggested a clogged injector so I decided to pull the injector and see what's the story. See the pics to understand the shock I was in when I got the injector off the SCR. The one on the left is the mount on the SCR, and the one on the right is the injector face. As you can see the DEF calcification (the white stuff) is so bad that it literally blocks the injector. This stuff is hard as a rock. I've used a few tools to remove the large pieces and finished the job with a steam cleaner that is very efficient in removing this stuff. I then put everything back together, re-installed DOM's plate, cleared the DTC and took her for a driving cycle. Once all the emissions readiness monitors turned green, the permanent DTC cleared out. I've had my SCR replaced about 20K miles ago which suggests this cleanup should be done every oil change. a real good source of information for this job is Shawn Capson's (R.I.P.) video: .
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File Type: jpg def2.jpg (180.9 KB, 17 views)
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Old 10-02-2016, 01:08 PM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

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Originally Posted by netboy View Post
Not sure if responding to this thread jinxed my JGC , but a few days ago I got the same "Service DEF system : See Dealer". Pulled DTC's and I've had a current, pending and permanent P20E9 (Reductant Pressure High). Searching the web suggested a clogged injector so I decided to pull the injector and see what's the story.
What are your typical driving patterns? Anecdotal evidence typically points to lots of idling and/or city driving for clogged DEF injectors.

Are you getting 10K miles or more out of a tank of DEF?

I'm trying to decide if I should be doing this as part of my routine maintenance. I typically get 11K miles out of a tank of DEF before the low DEF warning comes on, so my doses are pretty low overall.
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Old 10-03-2016, 12:13 AM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

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Originally Posted by akinney View Post
What are your typical driving patterns? Anecdotal evidence typically points to lots of idling and/or city driving for clogged DEF injectors.
About 50 miles highway commute daily at highway speeds. 80% or more highway driving with almost no idling. Casual weekend towing about 3-4 times a year.

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Are you getting 10K miles or more out of a tank of DEF?
I never fully fill the tank and never wait for the warning. I usually top off DEF with a single 2.5 Gal container once the fill indicator reaches 1/4 mark. Looking at my logs and extrapolating my annual milage and fill times, I'm using about 7.7 gallons in 10K miles, which is a bit more than 10K for a full 8 Gal tank.
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Old 10-03-2016, 01:11 PM
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Re: Service DEF system : See Dealer

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Originally Posted by netboy View Post
About 50 miles highway commute daily at highway speeds. 80% or more highway driving with almost no idling. Casual weekend towing about 3-4 times a year.



I never fully fill the tank and never wait for the warning. I usually top off DEF with a single 2.5 Gal container once the fill indicator reaches 1/4 mark. Looking at my logs and extrapolating my annual milage and fill times, I'm using about 7.7 gallons in 10K miles, which is a bit more than 10K for a full 8 Gal tank.
Well, shoot. I guess I'll have to do this. You don't fit the high DEF usage category at all. I have almost 20K miles on mine. It looks like I'll be doing this every other oil change.

What I don't get is how some people with higher mileage seemed to have escaped this issue. It's tempting to just wait for a code and cross my fingers that it takes a long time.
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