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  #61  
Old 06-20-2016, 07:12 PM
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Shifter Recall

I'm guessing the 17's may go push button park, problably like the cherokees - auto hand brake.

99% of the time I step on mine anyways, especially when on an incline!

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  #62  
Old 06-20-2016, 09:18 PM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by mks3029 View Post
This should put some pressure on Jeep to do something...

Anton Yelchin Death Highlights Concerns About Electronic Shifters - NBC News
Funny the article talks bout the recall and that they didn'the have a fix and then states they were not sure he got the notice and then took for repair.
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  #63  
Old 06-21-2016, 09:46 AM
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Re: Shifter Recall

I have actually attempted to leave mine in gear, then shut it off. Immediately after i get a constant alert ding and a message on the cluster states "car in gear" ..etc.

I still find it hard to understand how this is an issue..

Do these folks ignore all these alerts/safeguards???
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  #64  
Old 06-22-2016, 02:38 PM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Once again, the lamestream media get it all wrong and are not in the least bit helpful. Sensationalism rules folks......!

Perhaps they should tell people to RTFM and take time to PROPERLY learn their vehicle before setting out.

It appears to be nothing else than a case of "pilot error" and nothing to do with "fly by wire" software. Just another case of nanny state b.s. - not my fault, everyone else is to blame!

Bah!!!
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  #65  
Old 06-24-2016, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
It appears to be nothing else than a case of "pilot error" and nothing to do with "fly by wire" software.
Again, this shifter is a bad design that promotes this kind of user error.

If your computer OS had a documented feature that automatically silently erased your hard drive if you ever clicked the mouse anywhere in the lower half of the screen, that would similarly be a "RTFM, stupid user!" error as well as a very poor design. The auto-erase would also be "different and exciting" and meet the criteria for "change is good, even when it's just change for the sake of change!"

Traditional shifters have benefits due to muscle memory and cerebellar feedback. They are also a traditional UI for vehicles that people automatically understand. They also don't have "failure to execute user's intended command" modes like this shifter does.
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2016, 07:23 PM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Roadkill, I get your point but it is still down to "pilot error". There is nothing WRONG with the gear shifter, it is just a little different is all.

As far as your "muscle memory" and "feedback" theory goes. I am a 69 year old instrument rated pilot, checked out in 30 different aircraft (some VERY different!) a motorcyclist (ex-racer) and have driven more and different cars than I could list (or remember lol!) .

Motorcycle controls are pretty much the same, except for old Brit bikes which have a RH shift, so with jumping on a new motorcycle, it's mainly different switchgear and then getting the feel of it. Aircraft are another story......that's why we RTFM, get checked out in each one and have a checklist. With my background, I view motoring/driving as a serious subject and use and drive our vehicles accordingly. Unfortunately, in the USA it appears that most people view a vehicle as an "appliance" and driving as a right (not a privilege) and feel that a car should be (and do!) all things for them. If you look at the larger picture, the standard of driving is horrible and most driving "tests" a joke. Just go on from there! Given all that, FCA were probably a bit slow in being smart and 'dumbing down' the gearshift to cover any lack of attention. So, what is next? Mandatory Breathalyzers fitted to stop drunk driving, onboard camera's to report driver inattentiveness, eating while driving etc!

Welcome to the Nanny State!!!

In my case, I can jump into any LH or RHD car and after a couple of minutes, just drive it. This after checking out the switch gear and gear lever. I travelled globally before I retired and did this all the time without incident or accident. Remember manual gear shifts? You took your time to learn the gate positions and got smooth with it. There were more than a few different 'gates' used by different manufacturers, some with reverse on a different side of the gate, some with 5 and some with 6 speeds. So when you jumped into another vehicle, you HAD to check out the shift gate positions to ensure you drove off correctly and also so you didn't embarrass yourself going backwards instead of forwards and/or making nasty noises with the tranny.

As far as the software and hardware argument, IMHO, your example is unreasonable and illogical. In this case, we are referring to a gear lever with fixed form and functionality, you simply learn it and then use it appropriately.

The exception to this becomes if FCA discovers a software or hardware FAULT, where a user puts it in one gear and it goes into another. If this is proven, then all bets are off and they'll be writing checks. However, all that being said and given the amount of 8HP70 trannies around the globe (used in a plethora of expensive cars) and coupled with the apparent lack of reporting from other manufacturers/users, all this leads me to believe that in FCA's case, the issues are with the user(s) and not the actual gearchange itself.

Innocent until proven guilty isn't it - show me the evidence!

Oh! And, IMHO, a few drivers screwing up IS NOT evidence of a BAD gearshift.
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  #67  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:16 PM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Simple fix, just add P button for park. BMW uses P button for park, on same 8 speed transmission as Jeep.
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  #68  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:40 PM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Infinit View Post
I have actually attempted to leave mine in gear, then shut it off. Immediately after i get a constant alert ding and a message on the cluster states "car in gear" ..etc.

I still find it hard to understand how this is an issue..

Do these folks ignore all these alerts/safeguards???
Try putting it in reverse with the engine running, open the door unbuckle and start to get out. The engine has to be running and one thinks they are in park, but are in reverse or neutral for the issue to occur.
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  #69  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:50 PM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
Roadkill, I get your point but it is still down to "pilot error". There is nothing WRONG with the gear shifter, it is just a little different is all.
This! Yes, it took a few weeks to get use to, but once you get a feel for it there is no problem. You can feel the shifter click through the positions, so you do get tactile feedback. I drive this car in and out of car parks all the time, with lots of back and forward movement to manoeuvre around obstacles, can't remember the last time I missed a gear. I did miss park once or twice, but that was because I was in a big hurry and tried to Park, apply park brake and take off my seat belt in one movement. Still it was obvious the shifter had missed the position I wanted, hitting R feels different to hitting P. It's not difficult, just different, but controls on cars tend to be different, from indicators to pedal position to visibility, you drive accordingly.
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  #70  
Old 06-27-2016, 09:00 AM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Oh! And, IMHO, a few drivers screwing up IS NOT evidence of a BAD gearshift.[/QUOTE]


Actually, looking at the complaints filed on the NHTSA website, they number over 740 now, with a large percentage linked to the "rollaway" with many very nasty injuries. Luckily not more fatalities. User error is part blame but bottom line is it is a flawed design. You can add me to the list too - was dragged under the open drivers door while reversing my boat. Got pretty scraped up and have a front tire track on my back. If I had not had sense to keep rolling, I wouldn't be here to write this. And I was one who initially thought this whole issue was BS!
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  #71  
Old 06-27-2016, 09:09 AM
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Re: Shifter Recall

Ferntree,

Please remember that complaints on the NHTSA site are just that.....unverified complaints.

And, in this wonderfully litigious society of ours, I would think that they could also be put there as precursors to a claim against FCA. I can't think of anyone that would post on the NHTSA site that they had a problem due to them not RTFM and they messed up .

As I stated before, UNLESS there is empirical evidence to show that there is indeed a FAULT with the gearchange mechanism, any problems with it are still due to operator error.
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  #72  
Old 06-27-2016, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
Roadkill, I get your point but it is still down to "pilot error". There is nothing WRONG with the gear shifter, it is just a little different is all.
Haha, and I reject your opinion that 100% of the blame should be allocated to the pilot for the predictable outcome of a bad design.

It seems you believe I am advocating for a nanny state. I'm not. I am, however, critical of poor engineering like this shifter of doom.

Quote:
As far as the software and hardware argument, IMHO, your example is unreasonable and illogical. In this case, we are referring to a gear lever with fixed form and functionality, you simply learn it and then use it appropriately.
I disagree with your assessment, obviously. The example I gave is salient and comparable, albeit a use of reductio ad absurdum.

This shifter is objectively more difficult to use safely than a traditional shifter. Furthermore, this shifter has failure modes where does not do what it is commanded to do.
There are also benefits to standardization within the industry (c.f. the PRND shift order, OBD-II, etc).

Quote:
Oh! And, IMHO, a few drivers screwing up IS NOT evidence of a BAD gearshift.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, you aren't entitled to an echo chamber. Cheers!
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