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  #13  
Old 09-19-2015, 12:54 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by MDBones View Post
"The EPA says VW admitted that the device existed when they were threatened with not being allowed to sell 2016 model year diesels in the US."

Yes, VW is being unfairly persecuted by the EPA.
When VW acknowledges what the EPA accuses them off doing, then I'll be willing to accept what the EPA is accusing them off. Sorry, not an EPA fan boy.

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Old 09-19-2015, 01:52 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

I wonder if I could get the VW engineers to upload their emissions program into my EcoDiesel


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Old 09-19-2015, 05:52 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

The EPA didn't discover this themselves. Likely another automaker (perhaps GM) tried to replicate the fuel efficiency and power of their small diesel (think diesel Cruze) and couldn't match what VW was getting....

Now GM (and the EPA) know why.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:39 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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The EPA didn't discover this themselves.

I believe I read somewhere it was done at the behest of the EPA by the University of Virginia


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Old 09-19-2015, 10:14 PM
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VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

Problably disgruntled employee that ratted vw out. Whole epa thing is a farse. How much tonnage of waste is produced to fix EGR's plugged turbo's, failed engines, cat converters , list goes on. Europe must have really bad emission standards. They don't have this crap.
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Old 09-20-2015, 12:33 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by Jason911 View Post
I believe I read somewhere it was done at the behest of the EPA by the University of Virginia


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It was done at the behest of the EPA (I think it was West Virginia)...after someone whispered in the EPA's ear to take a look at this issue (and after presenting the "someone's" own findings...) The EPA certainly couldn't go after VW with another automaker's data...had to see it for themselves.
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Old 09-20-2015, 05:45 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

And now for an opposing viewpoint:

FIrst, Diesel exhaust is incredibly bad. Back maybe 15 years ago I was working for a company that made equipment for aerosol particle measurement..
Much of the crap that diesels spew is right in the sweet-spot (in terms of particle size) for absorption by human lungs.. the pharma companies were trying desperately (and are still trying) to get that particle-size range reliably generated for inhaled drug delivery.

So no, the EPA isn't doing bad things here.

Second, VW knew the rules. VW was surely deeply involved in the process that created the rules. The question in this case (not a lot has come out yet) is whether VW violated the "letter" or the "spirit" of the rules. Back a decade before my adventures in aerosols, I was doing computer architecture/design for a major computer company.. and we (and all our competitors) worked hard to get whatever set of benchmarks was important at a given time to fly, whether or not that made any difference at all to what real users saw for performance.. but we were adhering to the "Letter" of the benchmark rules, and not the "Spirit" of what the benchmarks were supposed to do...

Not clear VW can be fined for anything other than violating the "letter" of the law..
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Old 09-20-2015, 10:58 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by tomk View Post
And now for an opposing viewpoint:

FIrst, Diesel exhaust is incredibly bad. Back maybe 15 years ago I was working for a company that made equipment for aerosol particle measurement..
Much of the crap that diesels spew is right in the sweet-spot (in terms of particle size) for absorption by human lungs.. the pharma companies were trying desperately (and are still trying) to get that particle-size range reliably generated for inhaled drug delivery.

So no, the EPA isn't doing bad things here.

Second, VW knew the rules. VW was surely deeply involved in the process that created the rules. The question in this case (not a lot has come out yet) is whether VW violated the "letter" or the "spirit" of the rules. Back a decade before my adventures in aerosols, I was doing computer architecture/design for a major computer company.. and we (and all our competitors) worked hard to get whatever set of benchmarks was important at a given time to fly, whether or not that made any difference at all to what real users saw for performance.. but we were adhering to the "Letter" of the benchmark rules, and not the "Spirit" of what the benchmarks were supposed to do...

Not clear VW can be fined for anything other than violating the "letter" of the law..

I will be surprised if the EPA is attacking VW on diesel particulate emissions. They are probably attacking VW on NOX emissions which is nothing more than global warming fear mongering.
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:53 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

F1ANATIC, thanks for generalizing and marginalizing the opinions of others. The 'settled science' argument of our current president is getting tiring.

The simple fact is these 'laws' are actually regulations set forth by the EPA for emissions levels. The arbitrary levels of reduction set by the current administration have one goal, kill off internal combustion engines of any type. Zero emission vehicles is the ultimate goal.

Nobody in the EPA mentions the lower efficiency of adding new emission controls. Less efficiency means more fuel burned per mile. This at a time where they are also pushing MPG standards higher.






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VW should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

And before you are quick to judge EPA, think of the competitive advantages that a cheating automaker can have on the market through such manipulations. It may allow them to sell cars (and dominate the market) in places where they would comply with state-specific requirements (e.g. CARB) and other manufacturers don't.

Or maybe all manufacturers would be able to sell cars in those markets (e.g. California) except that the cheating manufacturer doesn't have to install the additional $750 dollar emission control device (DPF, urea injection, whatever) in order to pass the testing. So, they would be able to either price their vehicle lower than the competition, leading to a price advantage, hence more sales; or price it similar to the competitors but have a greater profit because their manufacturing cost was lower or any combination of these and other strategies.

And this nation has laws. Good or Bad they are to be followed until repelled. I personally care for the future and think that EPA tail pipe emission regulations (and any other regulations) serve to bring about technological progress as well as impact the overall morbidity and mortality. I love how Republicans love to say that we cannot change global warming by ourselves. No we cannot. And the fact that China may not cut its greenhouse gas emissions, will impact us. For sure. But emissions related to global warming also relate to the increased morbidity (disease) and mortality at local and regional levels. Of course there are advances in modern medicine which increase mean life expectation, but still translates into your parents dying sooner, you living a few years more than your parents but with chronic diseases, and your kids having chronic diseases that develop at much earlier ages. And that is all thanks to the toxic particulates PM 2.5 and PM 10 that you inhale, despite living miles or tens of miles away from industrial parks.
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:58 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by kclendaniel View Post
F1ANATIC, thanks for generalizing and marginalizing the opinions of others. The 'settled science' argument of our current president is getting tiring.

The simple fact is these 'laws' are actually regulations set forth by the EPA for emissions levels. The arbitrary levels of reduction set by the current administration have one goal, kill off internal combustion engines of any type. Zero emission vehicles is the ultimate goal.

Nobody in the EPA mentions the lower efficiency of adding new emission controls. Less efficiency means more fuel burned per mile. This at a time where they are also pushing MPG standards higher.

You are very welcome. For the record, I was playing with instrumentation measuring particulate matter, nitrogen and sulfur oxides before OUR current president was even thinking of becoming a senator in the state of Illinois.

Just because some people discredit the science behind such (current or proposed) regulations it doesn't mean it's not there, and should be swept under the rug. All of us are guilty of conveniently interpreting facts when it impacts their earning power or some other aspect of their lives. Maybe we should talk about the merits of childhood vaccinations then.

But before we do that, first remind us who was in the White House in the 1980s and the early 1990s? After you do that, read up on Dr. Arden Pope and his landmark study of the pollution in Utah Valley. He linked particulate matter to cardiovascular and respiratory disease, at levels below those regulated at the time by the EPA. But you know what...it was the damn Unions who created the environment for this nefarious research ! How dare them shut down the steel mill !
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Old 09-21-2015, 08:21 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

The Obama administration didn't create the rules that VW violated.

VW is going to get crushed on this one. CARB gave them the opportunity to fix it back in December and they didn't. Then it failed again in May and CARB had to develop a special dynamometer cycle to see real world emission levels.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use...nce_letter.htm
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Old 09-21-2015, 08:43 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

I'm surprised VW would supposedly "admit" to the CARB and/or the EPA that they had an ECU altering emissions during testing without at least that being contingent upon they all agreeing on a course of action and form of punishment. That doesn't sound very good counsel, at the least.

Also, I'd be curious as well as to how these US spec TDI's compare to the Euro spec TDI's as far as emissions outputs are concerned. Euro spec emissions I thought were very strict as well, but their cars usually required less emissions crap like the modern diesels do over here.

As for having to create a special tool to analyze NOx levels, that sounds just like the EPA and CARB, creating a threshold that before then couldn't be accurately measured.
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