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  #37  
Old 09-22-2015, 10:29 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

time to get real:
Quote:
FRANKFURT ó The scope of Volkswagenís diesel scandal broadened on Tuesday, when the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with the same software that was used to cheat on emissions tests in the United States.

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  #38  
Old 09-22-2015, 01:49 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

Keep in mind the issue here is the 2009-2014 VW Jetta TDI only, this car doesn't use Urea/DEF.

The capacity of these engine computers today is infinite. We went from 20 years ago a simple injector pulse width table, injector control pressure table for an ECM/PCM. Now you have 100's of tables all shown in 3D histogram with the software. The diesel injectors fire 5 times on each compression stroke. Exhaust regeneration is done by firing the injectors on the exhaust stroke. With fuel at 36,000psi. Also you have capacity for multiple program files and extra tables, and you could revert tables based on conditions or an input, you could have the PCM revert to low NOx setting based on XYZ input or condition. Which I believe is what has occured here. Many diesel vehicles VW, BMW, MB use the same Bosch EDC17 Computer and Bosch CPx fuel pump.

The issue is under certain conditions, the TDI 2009-2014 Jetta could produce up to 40x the NOx (Nitrogen Oxide) EPA rating. NOx is basically created by high cylinder temps. To lower NOx, need more EGR gas recirculated and, less boost, etc. Basically take all the power out of it and blow it down with spent exhaust gas. NOx itself is a particle smaller than what our human lungs can filter, thats the concern. All engines create some NOx. By using Urea with a catalyst NOx is turned back into Nitrogen.
One part that I noticed with these vehicles (The VW Jetta TDI). They were one of the few veichles you could buy up till 2014 that didn't have Urea injection. Nearly every other diesel vehicle has Urea/DEF injection to meet emissions. The odd part comes in where the larger VW Passat TDI has used urea injection with the same engine (VW 2.0)

My theory there is this 2.0 TDI VW engine is basically at the emissions threshold with a lighter jetta, vs. a larger heavier passat would require more fuel to create enough power for the EPA drive cycle. Thus requiring Urea.

However its in the manufactures best interest to design an engine not requiring Urea, if possible. It adds a considerable cost in equipment, additional price tag, hurt sales.

To be price competitive I believe VW, tried to cleverly meet emissions without Urea in the 2009-2014 VW Jetta, but may have found they wern't quite there so had to think outside the box and use some creative engineering.

Mazda has been working on Mazda6 Skyactive D (Diesel) for US Market going on 5 years now. Its been delayed 2 years. They said they could meet emissions without Urea or aftertreatment. More recetly according to Mazda i've heard They've employed a catalyst to allow a performance improvement. Still not ready for market.

I'd have to wonder if another manufacture tipped off this investigation.
I'm going to guess the resolution here will be to install Urea and a revised SCR catalyst on these Jetta's. Most likely will hit VW for $4,000 - $5,000 each car to be modifed, and probably have to buy those owners DEF/Urea/Adblue for the lifetime of the vehicle, in addition to any EPA fine incurred.

Otherwise the other option is VW loads a file in all these Jetta's that chugs them full of EGR and no boost, no power, and if it affects MPG... That point the consumer was sold a product that was not as described and we could see a buy back situation, or customer option for trade in.

The real vicitim is the other companies, who design and build vehicles to meet EPA standards.

Hope this helps, wait and see what happens next.
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  #39  
Old 09-22-2015, 02:41 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

C175, that's a pretty comprehensive approach to describing the unfair competitive advantage VW benefited from between 2009-2015.
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  #40  
Old 09-22-2015, 04:20 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by carqwik View Post
It was done at the behest of the EPA (I think it was West Virginia)...after someone whispered in the EPA's ear to take a look at this issue (and after presenting the "someone's" own findings...) The EPA certainly couldn't go after VW with another automaker's data...had to see it for themselves.
Why wouldn't the EPA take tips from competitors?
There are all sorts of Guv't standards [e.g. electronic emissions/radiation] where they rely on getting tips and evidence from competitors who know pretty much the engineering and science and wonder how another competitor can get such good numbers without cheating.
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  #41  
Old 09-22-2015, 04:22 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by gieseja View Post
The Obama administration didn't create the rules that VW violated.

VW is going to get crushed on this one. CARB gave them the opportunity to fix it back in December and they didn't. Then it failed again in May and CARB had to develop a special dynamometer cycle to see real world emission levels.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use...nce_letter.htm
I don't know if emissions violations on incoming vehicles would fall under customs or not, but if they do, the guv't could legally seize and destroy all unsold vehicles.

They did it to Commodore back just after 1984...
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  #42  
Old 09-22-2015, 04:24 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by Da Jeeper View Post
Dumb question....lets say epa snags the 18 billion...who ends up with the cash? Do politicians get another bonus or something
Oh no! That would NEVER happen. Congress will insist on taking that money and paying it out as income tax rebates/refunds for all of us who actually work for a living. Bwahhaaaahaaaahaaaa..
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  #43  
Old 09-22-2015, 04:29 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
VW has been at the forefront for getting the U.S. Interested again in light duty diesel vehicles. Making torquey sedans that get 45+ mpg go a long way towards forgetting the abomination of a diesel that GM pushed to us in the 80's. Did they mess up, you betcha! However, I wish them a full and speedy recovery.
Yeah, I'm worried that they may be forced to make some really stupid moves in order to deal with this.

NOx is largely a result of combustion temperature, the higher it is, the more NOx you get. Unfortunately, the higher the combustion temperature is, the higher performance/efficiency you tend to get.

It would cost a fortune to retrofit all of these with NOx scrubbing technology, but if that isn't the solution, driveability [they are nice little cars] could suffer.
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  #44  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:55 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

If they cheated on this model, it's logical that they cheated on other models/engines too. I've worked for a German company for the last 25 years. They only answer to themselves.
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  #45  
Old 09-22-2015, 07:24 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by tiri View Post
C175, that's a pretty comprehensive approach to describing the unfair competitive advantage VW benefited from between 2009-2015.
+1. This is really the crux of the matter.
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  #46  
Old 09-22-2015, 07:50 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

I guess lots of people also forgot that the diesel Grand Cherokee was also late in getting EPA's approval 2 years ago and its sale was delayed a few times. I know I posted EPA test and certification data on this site, at the time. I guess some companies were tying to get it done the legal way and others tried to cook the books.

How many years has VW been unchallenged in the small car segment in regards to offering a diesel engine? Financially, that is when you want to profit the most - no competition and minimize the manufacturing costs? The period of time also coincided with high gas prices and everyone wanted an alternative.

A BMW 335d is still a car I consider for my sedan replacement.
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  #47  
Old 09-22-2015, 09:26 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by f1anatic View Post
How many years has VW been unchallenged in the small car segment in regards to offering a diesel engine? Financially, that is when you want to profit the most - no competition and minimize the manufacturing costs? The period of time also coincided with high gas prices and everyone wanted an alternative.

A BMW 335d is still a car I consider for my sedan replacement.
Chevrolet Cruze Diesel, that's been the main competition to the Jetta TDI. Cruze does have Urea/DEF injection. How many cruze sales have been lost?

Another idea I've had, I support a free capitalist market that supports new and better ideas. But when that free market economy is betrayed by deliberately circumventing the laws of the country, this country needs to serve more than a monetary fine. What if all VW/audi/porsche diesel sales were banned for lets say 3 years? That would give back the market place to companies who've suffered for years and teach VW group you can't do that in this country.

I think the CEO needs to offer more than "we screwed up."
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  #48  
Old 09-23-2015, 07:04 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by C175 View Post
Chevrolet Cruze Diesel, that's been the main competition to the Jetta TDI. Cruze does have Urea/DEF injection. How many cruze sales have been lost?
Yes, Cruze is a competitor to the Jetta TDI.
But Cruze diesel wasn't around in 2009 and wasn't around in 2013 either. With the exception of a few over-priced BMW and Mercedes, there were no other diesel cars (not SUVs) at the time - well not even now.

I am not sure how the scandal will affect diesel sales here. But I know that not too long ago a few of the world cities were trying to ban Diesel. It might be that the resurgence of diesel in non-commercial vehicles / applications will be short-lived in US and will decline in Western societies.
Paris Smog Obscuring Eiffel Tower Threatens Diesel-Car Dominance - Bloomberg Business
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