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  #61  
Old 10-09-2015, 10:38 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

I don't understand why this thread is in the Ecodiesel area. It is not made by VW, the motor comes from Italy.

Should be moved, IMHO.

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  #62  
Old 10-10-2015, 04:16 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by Diesel Dan View Post
I don't understand why this thread is in the Ecodiesel area. It is not made by VW, the motor comes from Italy.

Should be moved, IMHO.
Simple. Because the latest news says this affects Jeep too, though not which model. So people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Then we all get to take part in the class action and Jeep offers buyback or a killer deal on a different Chrysler product. Or maybe they didn't cheat in the US and the news doesn't mean our Jeeps.
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  #63  
Old 10-10-2015, 09:30 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

And now this ;

M-B, Mazda, Honda and Mitsubishi are now being mentioned :

Four more carmakers join emissions rigging list: Guardian
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  #64  
Old 10-12-2015, 02:00 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

As I suggested earlier, the automaker's dirty little secret is out. Most everyone doing bolt-on tuning wouldn't see the processor access other tables since they would never be trying to simulate an EPA drive cycle. Following that line of thought, if there are owners of those flagged vehicles getting the business from the dealer over performance modifications, they can tell the dealer to "smoke a rope" since the car doesn't meet emissions standards anyway. The problems arising out of this issue will have an unbelievable ripple effect throughout many industries.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:54 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by philbytx View Post
And now this ;

M-B, Mazda, Honda and Mitsubishi are now being mentioned :

Four more carmakers join emissions rigging list: Guardian
From what I read in other sources, Mercedes, Mazda, et. all didn't cheat the system with software though. It just happens that the current testing regiment apparently doesn't match real world driving -- i.e. like EPA fuel economy numbers don't always match real world MPG -- and so while they pass the tests, in the real world they are pumping our more pollutants than allowed. This kind of behavior is likely to be found outside of just diesel engines but also direct injection, etc.
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  #66  
Old 10-12-2015, 06:04 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

rubicon,
That has never been the aim. The EPA test is an attempt to cover many driving conditions and establish maximum pollutant levels. It is secondarily used as a baseline in which to measure differences between vehicles. For instance, the WOT condition has never been tested. Many chip companies only tune for WOT and close to it since it will never affect emissions test results.

I think the rub is that VW wrote code within the tuning program(s) which could detect when an EPA emissions test was being performed and significantly modified the normal driving fuel, spark, transmission etc. maps to pass the test.

If for some reason NASCAR instituted an emissions test for the race cars, the strategy VW used would not be against the rules...until NASCAR removed the loophole barring different tuning for the emissions tests. I laughed while writing this because VW is sure to try the excuse, "Vell, you didn't say vee couldn't do zat." If there really is no rule against detecting an emissions driving cycle or excluding the use of specific tuning parameters to be used only during EPA driving cycles, the EPA might have a hard time levying any punishment.
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  #67  
Old 10-13-2015, 01:57 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

I'm under the impression that it's sort of like the EPA said the maximum Nox level was XXX, but then failed to establish a way to test that figure across the entire RPM band of the vehicles it was testing. VW didn't "cheat" their ECU, they programmed it to pass the EPA's test whilst at idle, per the EPA test procedure. VW isn't cheating here, their cars pass the EPA emissions at idle, per the EPA's test. The media and the EPA suddenly call that cheating and everybody is buying it like the gospel.

Now the EPA is acting like they have been accosted, because they are inferring that the vehicles are supposed to be compliant at all RPM's, which is silly since it is obvious that vehicles put out more "everything" (power, sound, emissions, etc.) when the RPM increases. I'm wondering if this may not be much more political than many are acknowledging, and this is an attempt by this administration to get rid of light duty diesels in favor to electric hybrids, which they have demonstrated a clear preference towards.
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  #68  
Old 10-13-2015, 06:18 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

VW violated the Clean Air Act plain and simple. Go to the CAA and see what appendix B pg 159 says. VW will get a violation put against them and it is pure negotiations as to what that fine will be and how long it will take.
One thing is clear. EPA will now have random testing and tests to verify results provided by the manufacturers...
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  #69  
Old 10-14-2015, 09:51 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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VW violated the Clean Air Act plain and simple. Go to the CAA and see what appendix B pg 159 says. VW will get a violation put against them and it is pure negotiations as to what that fine will be and how long it will take.
One thing is clear. EPA will now have random testing and tests to verify results provided by the manufacturers...
Come on, provide a direct link to the CAA page.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:41 AM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by fun2drive View Post
VW violated the Clean Air Act plain and simple. Go to the CAA and see what appendix B pg 159 says. VW will get a violation put against them and it is pure negotiations as to what that fine will be and how long it will take.
One thing is clear. EPA will now have random testing and tests to verify results provided by the manufacturers...
What does the wording of the regulation say? That the vehicle must comply during testing, or does it specifically say throughout the entire RPM band? Obviously neither ˘alifornia nor the EPA tested at anything other than idle, so I'm really failing to see where VW and others are so wrong? VW's ECU didn't cheat, it was programmed to pass the test at idle - just how so many of us throughout out society tackle tests - we study to pass the test.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:47 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

The test isn't done at idle - it is done at a certain speed and RPM on a dyno-like setup with a single roller. In order to keep the ABS and stability sensors from going haywire, VW instructed the testers to put it in test mode by pressing the hazard light button, pumping the gas pedal 5 times, then starting the car. The car then verified that the wheels were straight and only the fronts (drive wheels) were spinning. Then the car went into a *special* low NOx burn mode - which was the tested and found to be within the required range. That to me is a deliberate cheat.
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Old 10-14-2015, 06:35 PM
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Re: VW admits to EPA that diesel equipped cars will only meet emissions when tested

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Originally Posted by hayasa View Post
The test isn't done at idle - it is done at a certain speed and RPM on a dyno-like setup with a single roller. In order to keep the ABS and stability sensors from going haywire, VW instructed the testers to put it in test mode by pressing the hazard light button, pumping the gas pedal 5 times, then starting the car. The car then verified that the wheels were straight and only the fronts (drive wheels) were spinning. Then the car went into a *special* low NOx burn mode - which was the tested and found to be within the required range. That to me is a deliberate cheat.
It was a test, why not put it in test mode? Did the EPA say the OEM's couldn't optimize tuning parameters for the test?
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