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  #73  
Old 01-12-2016, 11:51 PM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

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Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
There is no turbo lag on the diesel, it delivers consistent power gain through the rev range, its a low pressure turbo, not enough to cause flat spots in power. The problem is the trans (I'm guessing the torque converter) not engaging on take off from dead stop, particularly when the drivetrain is cold. Revs come up, but there is no movement for a second, then it engages and takes off. Seems to be more noticeable on uphill take offs.
I am experience lag in a different way. Push the pedal to the metal, and wait for about 1/2 a second, sometimes closer to 1 second, and then revs come up and the CRD moves / torque kicks in and it really jumps. But during that lag it isn't waiting for the turbos to spool up, it's waiting for the engine to start revving. The turbo then spools up with the exhaust gasses.

That's the type of lag I experience.

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  #74  
Old 01-13-2016, 12:38 AM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

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Originally Posted by echo7tango View Post
I am experience lag in a different way. Push the pedal to the metal, and wait for about 1/2 a second, sometimes closer to 1 second, and then revs come up and the CRD moves / torque kicks in and it really jumps. But during that lag it isn't waiting for the turbos to spool up, it's waiting for the engine to start revving. The turbo then spools up with the exhaust gasses.

That's the type of lag I experience.
Is this from a dead start or in motion? What gear/revs? I drop down to 2nd at 1500rpm and mash the pedal and it gets up and goes, no hesitation, but that is in manual mode.
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  #75  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:45 AM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

I've never driven the EcoDiesel but I've read in numerous reviews that it suffers from turbo lag. My 14 Hemi with the same tranny never had hesitation. But my VW CC with a dsg had terrible hesitation from the tranny, but that's a different story lol
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  #76  
Old 01-13-2016, 02:17 AM
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Who regrets buy the diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlanding View Post
I've never driven the EcoDiesel but I've read in numerous reviews that it suffers from turbo lag. My 14 Hemi with the same tranny never had hesitation. But my VW CC with a dsg had terrible hesitation from the tranny, but that's a different story lol

I know a lot of people call it turbo lag, but I've owned a number of turbos and the lag I feel isn't turbo related. It revs up to 2k and no movement, then a jerk as the trans engaged and it takes off. Turbo lag would have the car moving but just not picking up much speed until the turbo kicks in and there would then be a big surge in power. Revs would mirror speed, revs would just be slow to increase. Turbo lag is more noticeable with high pressure turbos, as the power is absent until a certain rev point and then the power would surge. But you won't get a jerk or clunk.

I suspect the v8s don't see it because the torque delivery is different.
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  #77  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:08 AM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

I believe it's mainly from an electronic throttle. Diesels have a lot of low end grunt so they normally do not suffer from turbo lag due to how much air they move at lower rpm. If you get a GDE tune they improve the throttle at start so torque is immediate which cures this issue so that narrows it down to the programming as being the issue. You also cannot get around this as I would to spool the engine for quick launch (like crossing two lanes of traffic) by giving a little throttle while holding the brake - now I get an error from the computer "service elec throttle" and it shuts down the throttle until I lift my foot off the brake.
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  #78  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:53 AM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

Poor resale value is an issue but I keep my rides a long time.
Resale value would be significantly better if fuel was back up which it will be in a while.
Overall very pleased prefer driving the diesel to my twin turbo BWM


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  #79  
Old 01-14-2016, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
I know a lot of people call it turbo lag, but I've owned a number of turbos and the lag I feel isn't turbo related. It revs up to 2k and no movement, then a jerk as the trans engaged and it takes off. Turbo lag would have the car moving but just not picking up much speed until the turbo kicks in and there would then be a big surge in power.
I'd call it turbo lag because if you keep the brake depressed and spool the engine up to 2k rpm at a standstill it will immediately take off under power with no hesitation/high power in first gear as soon as the brake is released. (Protip: if you want to quickly fill your DPF, these kinds of turbo launches are a great way to do it.)

Otherwise, it's like the others have said: mash the pedal to the floor at a standstill then it will roll forward at low speed until the turbo kicks in at around 2k rpm and suddenly there is a big surge in power/acceleration. It doesn't matter if the drivetrain is "cold" or not.

I know you have an export CRD, so perhaps your vehicle is different than the NA EcoDiesel.
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:53 PM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

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Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
I'd call it turbo lag because if you keep the brake depressed and spool the engine up to 2k rpm at a standstill it will immediately take off under power with no hesitation/high power in first gear as soon as the brake is released.
But that will also engage the trans sooner. The real test is if you put your foot down from a dead stop and revs increase to 1800-200rpm with no movement at the wheels, then it has to be the trans not engaging. If you are getting movement straight away at 1000rpm and then slow to accelerate up to 2000rpm, then takes off it may well be turbo lag, or it could also be delayed throttle processing.

You would also see the dip in the dyno graph, red line is standard, blue line is tuned....



There may be some differences between the US and export models, but it would be strange if one had turbo lag and another didn't. They both use the same VGT turbo.
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
The real test is if you put your foot down from a dead stop and revs increase to 1800-200rpm with no movement at the wheels, then it has to be the trans not engaging.
As I (and others) have said, that isn't what happens.

Quote:
If you are getting movement straight away at 1000rpm and then slow to accelerate up to 2000rpm, then takes off it may well be turbo lag
As I described in my last post, this is exactly what happens. I have never experienced the "pause at a standstill" you describe your export CRD Jeep exhibiting.

With the NA EcoDiesel with the pedal floored the vehicle will accelerate slowly into the middle of the intersection and leave you wondering if you're going to get plowed by oncoming traffic. Then, suddenly, the turbo kicks in at around 2k rpm and acceleration/power abruptly becomes brisk.

I should have a passenger time this lag sometime because it subjectively feels like an eternity when you're glancing at oncoming traffic that would broadside your vehicle as it is crawling through the intersection.
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  #82  
Old 01-14-2016, 11:15 PM
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Who regrets buy the diesel?

More useful would be video of the tacho and speedo when it happens. That should tell the story. VGT turbos just don't tend to suffer lag, that is why they are used. You could also rev it out in N to see if it flat spots, and try manual mode.

edit: here's mine from today, drivetrain is warm. It goes from the time I stamp the pedal. I'll have to do another one tomorrow when the car is cold. Speedo is in km/h
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  #83  
Old 01-15-2016, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benn0 View Post
More useful would be video of the tacho and speedo when it happens.
I took a video tonight that illustrates the lag. As I mentioned before, the NA EcoDiesel does not hang at a standstill with the pedal floored, and instead immediately begins to roll at low RPM.

After a brief interval (i.e. a subjective eternity if you're in the middle of an intersection with oncoming traffic) of having the pedal floored with slow acceleration the turbo kicks in at ~2k rpm — in this case 20 km/h / 12 mph — whereupon the Jeep gets a kick in the pants and accelerates briskly.

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  #84  
Old 01-15-2016, 10:02 PM
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Re: Who regrets buy the diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkill View Post
I took a video tonight that illustrates the lag. As I mentioned before, the NA EcoDiesel does not hang at a standstill with the pedal floored, and instead immediately begins to roll at low RPM.

After a brief interval (i.e. a subjective eternity if you're in the middle of an intersection with oncoming traffic) of having the pedal floored with slow acceleration the turbo kicks in at ~2k rpm — in this case 20 km/h / 12 mph — whereupon the Jeep gets a kick in the pants and accelerates briskly.


Good video.

My uneducated take is that it is a factor of the PCM measuring engine "load". The engine "load" is low in 1st gear, so it doesn't engage the turbo. Upshift to 2nd and the "load" on the engine is now registering higher and the turbo engages. Hence, a PCM tune can fix this as evidenced by GDE and PPEI.

If it were a transmission only issue, no PCM tune could touch it.

Edit: Should have watched the video closer. Power definitely comes on before shift from first to second. Still, I think it's the PCM programming retarding the turbo usage.
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